Home defense ammo

[anti-socialist]

common sense tells me....

It's also something of a myth with FMJ that it goes through-and-through all the time

that it will go through... at a home defense situation.... close range.. it will. Anything futher away, would be used against you.

 

[j4l]

http://le.atk.com/general/irl/videos.aspx :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Felix]

let me know what you guys think.

Federal HST...used by many federal, state and local law enforcement departments. A proven performer, even at subsonic velocities like the .45ACP.

 

[j4l]

Im beginning to like what Im seeing on the HST. Been looking over the FBI test-format results of it. Seems to be the rough equal to the Gold Dot in performance and consistency.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Butte_WBW_5_27_09.pdf


May have a go at some of these myself, if anyone local is stocking them. GDHPs are becomming next to impossible to find anymore.. 230 grainers vanish off the shelves before I can get into the stores around here..

 

[anti-socialist]

ballistic geletin

is not a reliable test medium, as far as I'm concerned. But I have seen FMJ travel ALOT further than than HP...in the geletin, a foot or more than the HP's with hardly any energy release.

 

[j4l]

Sometimes yes, but sometimes no.My own results have been mixed,of course.
And the other post was my point about gel. So many tests relying on it,and so many folks basing opinions on what they expect of this that or the other type/caliber of round on that misleading info.

Yes, the tests sometimes shoot through other materials, like above (cloth/sheetrock/steel/glass) -and then they go on to note how deep it penetrated the gell after...well..there's a distinct lack of bone, gristle, cartilage, etc. in gel...so...

 

[j4l]

..another interesting thing about those tests though..,. how poorly 5.56mm does in the same tests vs. the handgun rounds..
Kinda makes one wonder, because common wisdom generally accepts rifle rounds @ higher velocities are more likely to penetrate deeper etc..

 

[Felix]

But I have seen FMJ travel ALOT further than than HP...

OK, I don't think anyone's going to quibble with that. But what I'm looking for is something which will initially penetrate heavy clothing, not fragment when encountering heavy bone structure and expand enough to stay within a typical body-sized mass while expending 100% of its energy. Federal HSTs do that.

As someone mentioned earlier, another excellent choice is Gold Dot bullets.

Feral Ammunition uses them in their defensive handloads:

Custom Defense Ammunition. Feral Ammunition uses only the best components in our line of defensive ammunition. These include Gold Dot, Golden Saber and XTP bullets. We use our own line of high quality brass cartridge cases, primers, and powder blends to produce the most accurate, dependable ammunition available at any price from any manufacture. We custom blend powders for low flash and consistent, high velocity at the lowest pressures possible.

 

[marshaul]

Kinda makes one wonder, because common wisdom generally accepts rifle rounds @ higher velocities are more likely to penetrate deeper etc..

No, that isn't common wisdom.

Or, at least, it shouldn't be.

Forgetting other issues, that 55gr bullet doesn't store energy very well. The velocity is dissipated faster than with a handgun round, given the same total energy. Since energy equals one-half mass times velocity squared, the small-caliber rifle round will also lose energy faster than a handgun round, which bears more of its energy in the mass component than does the rifle round.

 

[anti-socialist]

Sometimes yes, but sometimes no.My own results have been mixed,of course.
And the other post was my point about gel. So many tests relying on it,and so many folks basing opinions on what they expect of this that or the other type/caliber of round on that misleading info.

Yes, the tests sometimes shoot through other materials, like above (cloth/sheetrock/steel/glass) -and then they go on to note how deep it penetrated the gell after...well..there's a distinct lack of bone, gristle, cartilage, etc. in gel...so...

I use Hornady critical defense TSX ammo, which was designed to penetrate heavy clothing.


The place I live in, a duplex, I don't want to bust through a wall and pop someone. The TSX isn't considered a HP, but behaves like one. HP bullets don't expand like the TSX when clogged up... hence will bust through a wall easily due to not loosing thier energy and velocity.

So, no worries at home, or at court....

 

[Felix]

Yep, Marshaul's points are well made.

Spend some time on this forum and you'll quickly see why the military's new darling is the 6.8mm SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge).

Additionally, the author on Wikipedia does a good job of explaining the compromises which took place en route to development of the 6.8.

 

[anti-socialist]

Here's a good reference...

The .40 S&W didn't do well..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF7U9mBQQWk

but the .45 ACP did... a slower round compared to the .40....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HNSS7tomtw

 

[j4l]

Yep, Marshaul's points are well made.

Spend some time on this forum and you'll quickly see why the military's new darling is the 6.8mm SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge).

Additionally, the author on Wikipedia does a good job of explaining the compromises which took place en route to development of the 6.8.

Good timing on this one, as Im considering the eventual purchase of a carbine/sbr for the home defense as well. (already got handgun/shotgun covered). Thing is, I'm on the fence as to deciding do I want a handgun-cal. (pref. 45acp )semi-auto carbine (Olympic k45/MPA SSX/ if it comes out, and proves worthy-the Taurus CT) , a lever-action in either 30-30 or .44/.45 etc., or a rifle-cal. AR/AK type.

My situation/location is a bit different from most folks on here, in that Im in a semi-rural area with potential ranges out to as far as 75m, and less of a concern about "by-standers" than in ,say, a sub-division in more populated areas.

Of the rifle -cal. carbines I've been considering are an AR-pattern in either 5.56 or 6.8, Ak-types (my preferred choice ).
Im not as up to speed on 6.8 as I should be- (came out since I've been out of the Army). What, if any advantages are there -for this use-of 6.8 vs. 7.62x39mm?

 

[Felix]

What, if any advantages are there -for this use-of 6.8 vs. 7.62x39mm?

Start with ~350fps more velocity with standard loadings out of a carbine-length bbl.

 

[Felix]

The .40 S&W didn't do well..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF7U9mBQQWk

And also not what's loaded in my daily-carry SIG .40 S&W as I'm sure you picked up on further up in the thread. But the Gold Dot sure looks like a top choice for .45ACP fans. That's a beautiful example of bullet expansion out of the venerable subsonic .45ACP.

Keep in mind though, two-legged "jugs" have bone. It's not nice and neat like shooting Ballistic gelatin or wet newspapers.

 

[anti-socialist]

actually that's not the purpose of the vids...

The purpose was to show that the gold dot did not fully expand and was the cause for the over penetration.

 

[Felix]

The purpose was to show that the gold dot did not fully expand and was the cause for the over penetration.

I must be missing your point. What exactly is it? The purpose of the vid was to test the performance of the rounds using wet newspaper in milk jugs as the penetration media. I didn't see evidence that the tester had any preconceived notion that the .40 S&W Gold Dot bullet wasn't going to expand as well as it could have in his wet newspaper test. Nor that he was out to "show" anything beyond merely measuring expansion and penetration. In fact, he seemed genuinely surprised at the Gold Dot given it's excellent reputation by dozens of expert federal and military bullet-performance testers.

The fact that bullet expansion diameter and media penetration are inextricably linked is quite obvious to any experienced shooter. Probably even inexperienced ones.

 

[anti-socialist]

my point is...

is that traditional HP's clog up and do not expand as well as they should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViDQzImIjtk&feature=fvwrel

 

[DevinWKuska]

Federal HST...used by many federal, state and local law enforcement departments. A proven performer, even at subsonic velocities like the .45ACP.

Interestingly enough Felix my complaint is that HST/HS(Hydra-Shoks) are all but impossible to find where I live. I have looked around online and everyone is always sold out or no longer carrying the porduct. Thus the point of this very thread. If you know where to get them online or would be interested in negociating something PM me please

 

[4angrybadgers]

Interestingly enough Felix my complaint is that HST/HS(Hydra-Shoks) are all but impossible to find where I live. I have looked around online and everyone is always sold out or no longer carrying the porduct. Thus the point of this very thread. If you know where to get them online or would be interested in negociating something PM me please

I ordered my HSTs from PoliceHQ/Streicher's 2 years ago. At the time they were backordered, so it took 2 months to get my ammo, but the price was good. http://www.policehq.com/ProductList...erValues=c5456663-1803-498f-9a57-3038b4914f95
Actually, now the prices look lower than back then... :uhoh: I may order a box of HSTs for my RIA 1911 soon.