since9
Campaign Veteran
"Two to the heart, one to the head." That's what my USAF range instructors always told me. When accompanied by a prime hostile target, an unKevlared face might be where one needs to aim.
If the face is covered, aim elsewhere.
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Home defense ammo
- Thread starter DevinWKuska
- Start date
"Two to the heart, one to the head." That's what my USAF range instructors always told me. When accompanied by a prime hostile target, an unKevlared face might be where one needs to aim.
If the face is covered, aim elsewhere.
MSC 45ACP
Regular Member
Home Defense Ammo vs. marksmanship
Having the right rounds in your pistol is secondary. Your PRIMARY focus should be MARKSMANSHIP and nothing but! You can have standard ball ammunition loaded in a .22 and 'get the job done' with a single round and proper marksmanship. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend keeping the ol' Ruger Mk1 as a primary home defense pistol. If you have a short-barreled pistol (that loses a LOT of velocity with regular rounds), I would recommend ammo designed for short barrels that a few manufacturers have put out there.
Interesting article on the subject: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/
More important than ammo: MARKSMANSHIP. How many of you practice the Mozambique Drill with 3" x 5" cards on a human silhouette target? Can you do it under all lighting conditions and/or after sprinting 20 yards then doing 10 pushups (to stimulate the ol' ticker)? If you're physically able, then I would suggest practicing that. Walk before you run (literally). Learn proper marksmanship skills, then add the 'stressors'. You won't learn marksmanship at 3 or 7 yards, though. If you can consistently keep your rounds on a 3" x 5" card at 25 yards, then you're familiar with "proper marksmanship". That's a good start. If you can shoot at 25 yards, you increase your chances of hitting what you aim at when you're 7 yards away. 3 yards is up close and personal. That's another class entirely and you should take some advanced marksmanship courses for that.
Support your local NRA or military-trained marksmanship instructor and get instruction from a REAL instructor rather than well-meaning Uncle Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob.
Having the right rounds in your pistol is secondary. Your PRIMARY focus should be MARKSMANSHIP and nothing but! You can have standard ball ammunition loaded in a .22 and 'get the job done' with a single round and proper marksmanship. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend keeping the ol' Ruger Mk1 as a primary home defense pistol. If you have a short-barreled pistol (that loses a LOT of velocity with regular rounds), I would recommend ammo designed for short barrels that a few manufacturers have put out there.
Interesting article on the subject: http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/
More important than ammo: MARKSMANSHIP. How many of you practice the Mozambique Drill with 3" x 5" cards on a human silhouette target? Can you do it under all lighting conditions and/or after sprinting 20 yards then doing 10 pushups (to stimulate the ol' ticker)? If you're physically able, then I would suggest practicing that. Walk before you run (literally). Learn proper marksmanship skills, then add the 'stressors'. You won't learn marksmanship at 3 or 7 yards, though. If you can consistently keep your rounds on a 3" x 5" card at 25 yards, then you're familiar with "proper marksmanship". That's a good start. If you can shoot at 25 yards, you increase your chances of hitting what you aim at when you're 7 yards away. 3 yards is up close and personal. That's another class entirely and you should take some advanced marksmanship courses for that.
Support your local NRA or military-trained marksmanship instructor and get instruction from a REAL instructor rather than well-meaning Uncle Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob.
For some reason I'm picturing that karate instructor from Napoleon Dynamite.
"You think anyone wants a kick to the side of the head while wearing these bad boys?"
VetteFreakC5
Regular Member
I agree with most of what you have said. Yes, marksmanship is important, but a lot of it goes out the window in close quarters, ie inside 25' and under they physchological and physiological effects of combat. Training under "stress" of physical activity can help, but without the actual simulation of combat you cannot really practice your actions during it.
I know many very good marksman who can't hit a target for **** under extreme stres- their marksmanship did them no good. It is estimated only 20% of police officers rounds fired actually hit their intended target for these very same reasons.
I would recommend to everyone to take some form of combat pistol class by instructors who are combat proven. Where they can more accurately simulate the various types of stress that one will experience in a self defense shooting situation.
Curious as to the OP. Upon what is this dissatisfaction with HP's based? Have you had to use some for thier intended purpose,and they failed you? Or is it feeding/reliability problems? Punching holes in paper targets @ the range with HP's doesnt exactly give any real impressions of their effectiveness.
And, with HP's if they do fail to expand for one reason or other, at worst, they merely act as FMJs...to which many a battlefield foe has fallen, sooo....
And, with HP's if they do fail to expand for one reason or other, at worst, they merely act as FMJs...to which many a battlefield foe has fallen, sooo....
It is a huge reason why I run Power ball ammo, it has a very large hollow point with a polymer ball so it fixes all of those issue or possible ammo issues with my 1911.I did a expansion test on some water jugs and as expected they expanded well but they did shed there jackets which doesn't concern me. The polymer ball helps the expansion on impact dishing out the bullet.
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since9
Campaign Veteran
If you cannot or prefer not to "support" an instructor but can read and understand English, working your way through the various (60+) Handgun Standards is a perfectly acceptable alternative. Every two months, I pick one (different one every time) and head to the range. So far I've done 7 different ones:
1. Federal Air Marshall TPC
2. FBI Pistol Qualification Course
3. DOE Daylight Handgun Qualification Course
4. DOE Reduced Light Handgun Qualification Course
5. DOE Shooting on the Move Handgun Qualification
6. Survival Index
7. Police Firearms Instructor (State of Colorado)
Next up: Handgun Course 5 (NH Police Standards and Training Counsel)
I thnk I'll skip the Air Force Qualification Course for handgun, as I scored "Expert" on that 9 times throughout my military career.
If you're having difficulty meeting the Handgun Standards requirements after throwing a few hundred rounds downrange, then you may want to consider hiring an instructor to help diagnose and correct what you may be doing wrong.
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DevinWKuska
Regular Member
My issue is not really with feeding issues as my Taurus PT145 has no problem eating any ammo I put through it(bar that cheap steel cased russian ammo gdi). My issue is looking at ballistic jelly tests HP ammo just doesnt strike me as effective. My hydrashocks(still got 20 left thank god!) in ballistic jelly tests are amazing. high temporary canal creation, excellent fragmentation, and fp pressure upon fragmentation are all high with hydrashocks. HP such has the common "Critical Defense" when shot through ballistic jelly arent very impressive. I think if it came to fmj or HP I would rather trust my life to fmj(keep in mind I dont have neighbors to worry about).
If it werent so hard to find anyone stocking it, EFMJ may not be too bad either..
Ballistics test look neat, and all-and give a rough idea of performance, but actual street results (check out any Trauma center near u) dont usually pan out the marketing with most types of HP. -(9mm/.40)
Gold Dots seem to be about the most consistent, overall..
Ill be packing FMJ mostly around the home, (not many neighbors, etc.), Mostly GD for carry-or perhaps a mix FMJ/GD's
Ballistics test look neat, and all-and give a rough idea of performance, but actual street results (check out any Trauma center near u) dont usually pan out the marketing with most types of HP. -(9mm/.40)
Gold Dots seem to be about the most consistent, overall..
Ill be packing FMJ mostly around the home, (not many neighbors, etc.), Mostly GD for carry-or perhaps a mix FMJ/GD's
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Side question- how are you liking the 145 overall? Am considering one as CC/Backup to my 845, so as to still be using .45 vs. .380/.32 etc.(no, 9mm is not even remotely a consideration)
swinokur
Activist Member
Read writings from Stephen Halbrook, Mas Ayoob and others on the use of non standard ammo in a self defense shooting situation. According to them, not a good idea.
They have their points but I have my own personal experiences to go off of as well. I will never follow every word of any "expert" doing so is foolish. Because what may work for them with their training can very well get you killed trying to copy their philosophy. They certainly know what they are talking about in most cases but simply just because they say so does not make it so. Do your own independent research and confirm what "experts" are saying, personally no round is ever perfect for every situation but overall a High Quality hollow point will do plenty of damage when used correctly.
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irish52084
Regular Member
Just some food for thought, the hydrashock is a dated bulllet design and has been prone to not expanding when fired through clothing. Some of the expansion issues were improved with a slight re-design. If you want a bullet that is most reliable in it's expansion, I'd suggest something like the DPX. It will expand through just about everything even if it doesn't expand quite as wide some other bullets. It is more likely to expand in situations where other bullets might not.
I like ballistic gel tests as much as anybody, but they are not prefect indicators of real world performance. A quality HP is almost always a better choice than FMJ. A .45 caliber hole is good and all, but the wound channel created by energy transfer is tiny in comparison to an expanding bullet. The other advantage to a HP is the possibility of fragmentation in the target as well as a reduction of over penetration possibilities.
Shoot what you like, but remember there are a lot of advantages to a HP bullet. The best example I can think of is high power rifle hunting bullets, they are almost all expanding, bonded bullets that help create a massive temporary wound cavity while retaining consistent penetration. If stopping a target boiled down to bullet diameter alone, we'd all have .50+ caliber sized guns, but that's just not the case. Try to remember that a handgun is a lot of compromises to the incapacitation of a threat. It has to be small enough to carry easily yet powerful enough to be effective at short ranges. I'm sure you know all this, just trying to cover all the bases.
jpjpjp
Regular Member
KansasMustang
Regular Member
How accurate do you have to be at ten feet?
KansasMustang
Regular Member
I'm sorry, but I live in a state that has both. Castle Doctrine and "No retreat"
MSC 45ACP
Regular Member
+1! I completely agree, Brother Vette. Well put.
Havent fired any handloads since I was a kid (Uncle's .22 roll your owns). But, Id not be inclined to find out the hard way if a shooting ended up having to go to court...
In a day and age when folks sue each other over how hot the coffee is, or if there were "peanuts" in their food :banghead: :banghead: .....is it worth trying?
But, by the same token- if someone wants to they could try suing you for using a Wrist Rocket if they wanted...maybe a moot point, who knows? Not one I'd take a chance on with defensive ammo though.
Also, some brand/makes will not honor their warranties if handloads/reloads are used.
Not sure how they'd prove/disprove that,but why find out?
Well I agree people sue over everything but If I find a round that puts a threat down better I will use it no matter the count problems. As for the coffie mess after that woman won the lawsuit Micky D sued her for the entire amount she won and more. Micky D won that court case in the end.
Tawnos
Regular Member
Some people buy $4/round super new factory magic ammunition to stop the unstoppable.
Me, I buy another 25 rounds and practice headshots.
Me, I buy another 25 rounds and practice headshots.