Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

[marshaul]

Now I am envious that you have student access to a $100/a subscription, and Nature is worse, double.

:lol: I knew you'd say something.

My father subscribes to both, so I get them once they're read.

 

[marshaul]

Somewhat busy today so I don't have time to make the reply I'd like to, but for now...

I too am learning alot from this discussion. I would like to pose a counterpoint to Marshall concerning the historical utility of gold and silver. They have indeed had a usefulness throughout history as decoration, jewelry.Gold most certainly because its easy to form and doesnt oxodize, retaning its luster.

True, but I would respond in turn that the utility of gold and silver as jewelry is a form of essentially artistic expression, and with all such things, one man's beautiful golden jewelry is another man's gaudy excess. If anything I think this nicely underlines the fundamental subjectivity of value.

 

[OC for ME]

Value is only in the eyes of the purchaser. Though, at some point Mr Barnum's axiom comes into play and the seller's view rules the transaction.

 

[Haz.]

For questions about the federal taxes please click here watch the linked videos and then ask.

But, slavery, isn't that when someone else owns the fruits of your labor?

Is it when someone else owns your body? (if they own your body then they own your labor)

What would you do if you owned (a) slave(s) (how would you care for them)?

What is the percentage of your labors that have to be owned by someone else before it's slavery?

Do slaves have natural rights or granted (civil)"rights?"

Can slaves carry weapons (guns) or do they need the permission of their master (the state)?

What is a slave?

My Uncle was a spitfire pilot,WW2, shot down over France, ended up in a prison camp, escaped, was smuggled back to England and continued the fight. My father also spent some time in a German POW camp and was treated very cruely.

My father and I spent many hours around the camp fire on hunting trips, me asking questions, him passing on his many years of experiences and knowledge. He once said to me, speaking of the Australian government;

Haz, "If they ever take away your right to with draw your labour, (John Howard did this making it illegal to strike), and if they ever take away your right to own a gun, (John Howard also did this), THEY HAVE MADE YOU A SLAVE!

 

[OC for ME]

What is a slave?

My Uncle was a spitfire pilot,WW2, shot down over France, ended up in a prison camp, escaped, was smuggled back to England and continued the fight. My father also spent some time in a German POW camp and was treated very cruely.

My father and I spent many hours around the camp fire on hunting trips, me asking questions, him passing on his many years of experiences and knowledge. He once said to me, speaking of the Australian government;

Haz, "If they ever take away your right to with draw your labour, (John Howard did this making it illegal to strike), and if they ever take away your right to own a gun, (John Howard also did this), THEY HAVE MADE YOU A SLAVE!

Wise words.....however, are you in bondage, unable to flee state sanctioned oppression?

No, I am not making the "Well, if ya don't like it move" statement. Slavery, as everyone should know it to be, is not what The Land Downunder is experiencing. When they drag you back to Australia in chains then the comparison will be confirmed.

 

[stealthyeliminator]

Wise words.....however, are you in bondage, unable to flee state sanctioned oppression?

No, I am not making the "Well, if ya don't like it move" statement. Slavery, as everyone should know it to be, is not what The Land Downunder is experiencing. When they drag you back to Australia in chains then the comparison will be confirmed.

Were the Israelites not slaves because they were able to escape from the Egyptians? Is it a matter of degrees? Is it a matter of how difficult it is to escape, compared to one's mental and physical abilities to do so? For instance, if I put a clothes basket over my cat, you might say I've imprisoned it, as the cat will not be able to lift the basket and be free on its way. If I put a clothes basket over my nephew, though, you might say I've inconvenienced him, because he'll be able to easily lift the basket and continue on his way (barring further intervention on my part).

I say whether it is a matter of degrees or not, when it comes to qualifying slavery, it certainly is not a matter of degrees that one's freedom has been infringed by any amount of force being used, even if it's easily overcome. So where is the threshold which qualifies the term slavery?

I guess I don't know the answer, but I don't think that being able to escape disqualifies the use of the term slavery.

 

[OC for ME]

Were the Israelites not slaves because they were able to escape from the Egyptians? Is it a matter of degrees? Is it a matter of how difficult it is to escape, compared to one's mental and physical abilities to do so? For instance, if I put a clothes basket over my cat, you might say I've imprisoned it, as the cat will not be able to lift the basket and be free on its way. If I put a clothes basket over my nephew, though, you might say I've inconvenienced him, because he'll be able to easily lift the basket and continue on his way (barring further intervention on my part).

I say whether it is a matter of degrees or not, when it comes to qualifying slavery, it certainly is not a matter of degrees that one's freedom has been infringed by any amount of force being used, even if it's easily overcome. So where is the threshold which qualifies the term slavery?

I guess I don't know the answer, but I don't think that being able to escape disqualifies the use of the term slavery.

All that you state is quite true. However, everybody knows what slavery is. Hazs' body is not owned, I hope not anyway, as is related, or postulated, in the op.

Now, some may argue that their bodies are owned, but those discussions are nothing but a distraction. Everybody knows what slavery is. Compelled servitude is a different subject all together.

We all have a choice, even when the choices seem limited.

 

[Haz.]

Wise words.....however, are you in bondage, unable to flee state sanctioned oppression?

No, I am not making the "Well, if ya don't like it move" statement. Slavery, as everyone should know it to be, is not what The Land Downunder is experiencing. When they drag you back to Australia in chains then the comparison will be confirmed.

My grandfather and father as a boy worked in the mines 60 hours plus per week for starvation wages. They went on strike, the mine owners locked them out, put in scab labour, sent in the coppers to disrupt a union gathering and Norman Brown, a married man with children was shot and killed by police.

That's what happens to unarmed people willing to stand up to evil governments and employers.

Its not as bad as this these days but I was told if I do not hand in my Remington express 12g pump I will be sent to prison for ten years.

I, as our mines union rep, years ago, I had words with our mine manager who was demanding short cuts be taken to increase production, and said, "What your asking the men to do is extremely dangerous. If some decide out of fear of loosing their job do it, I can assure you, I wont be doing this!"

His reply was, (remembering at that time strikes were outlawed), If you don't like it here and wont do as your ordered to do by the mine manager, you WILL, under the mine managers rules. BE DISMISSED!" Only he used more colour full words. If that's not modern day slavery, what is?

 

[Freedom1Man]

My grandfather and father as a boy worked in the mines 60 hours plus per week for starvation wages. They went on strike, the mine owners locked them out, put in scab labour, sent in the coppers to disrupt a union gathering and Norman Brown, a married man with children was shot and killed by police.

That's what happens to unarmed people willing to stand up to evil governments and employers.

Its not as bad as this these days but I was told if I do not hand in my Remington express 12g pump I will be sent to prison for ten years.

I, as our mines union rep, years ago, I had words with our mine manager who was demanding short cuts be taken to increase production, and said, "What your asking the men to do is extremely dangerous. If some decide out of fear of loosing their job do it, I can assure you, I wont be doing this!"

His reply was, (remembering at that time strikes were outlawed), If you don't like it here and wont do as your ordered to do by the mine manager, you WILL, under the mine managers rules. BE DISMISSED!" Only he used more colour full words. If that's not modern day slavery, what is?

In this country those who own the government are trying to take away our guns.

You can't leave this country without paying huge fees/fines.

You're labor is being taxed as though you don't own it in the first place and are only laboring with, taxed, permission.

In short you don't own the fruits of your labor, your master is allowing you to keep some of it and is talking about letting you keep even less to pay for those slaves who are no longer useful on the self controlled plantation. You can do any job you want on this plantation so long as the supervisor of that area okays and they get verification that you are a slave that we have okay-ed to work there.

 

[stealthyeliminator]

In this country those who own the government are trying to take away our guns.

You can't leave this country without paying huge fees/fines.

You're labor is being taxed as though you don't own it in the first place and are only laboring with, taxed, permission.

In short you don't own the fruits of your labor, your master is allowing you to keep some of it and is talking about letting you keep even less to pay for those slaves who are no longer useful on the self controlled plantation. You can do any job you want on this plantation so long as the supervisor of that area okays and they get verification that you are a slave that we have okay-ed to work there.

Hmm. How true. You literally do have to get permission from the government before selling your labor or product to others. If you don't, even if you're a mere child selling lemonade, you'll be oppressed and shut down by the police.

 

[georg jetson]

All that you state is quite true. However, everybody knows what slavery is. Hazs' body is not owned, I hope not anyway, as is related, or postulated, in the op.

Now, some may argue that their bodies are owned, but those discussions are nothing but a distraction. Everybody knows what slavery is. Compelled servitude is a different subject all together.

We all have a choice, even when the choices seem limited.

I disagree with you. Let me make my counterpoint this way.

If slavery is defined by ones ability to leave, then one was never a slave if one escapes. By escaping you show that you had a choice and it was just a mater of time that you exercised that choice. By your definition there has never been a slave escape.

 

[marshaul]

I disagree with you. Let me make my counterpoint this way.

If slavery is defined by ones ability to leave, then one was never a slave if one escapes. By escaping you show that you had a choice and it was just a mater of time that you exercised that choice. By your definition there has never been a slave escape.

It isn't quite so simple if you differentiate "leaving" from "escaping", or rather being free to leave from being forced to escape.

 

[georg jetson]

It isn't quite so simple if you differentiate "leaving" from "escaping", or rather being free to leave from being forced to escape.

Well, by all means differentiate within the context of this thread. There are things you must do to leave. When is the threshold crossed such that you're now escaping?

Edit - I wish I had thoight of this earlier...

This reminds me of a comedian who was a Mexican imigrant. He began the process as an illegal alien. He noticed that when a Russian was able to get to the States it was called "defecting". So he decided to "defect" from Mexico.

 

[georg jetson]

Somewhat busy today so I don't have time to make the reply I'd like to, but for now...



True, but I would respond in turn that the utility of gold and silver as jewelry is a form of essentially artistic expression, and with all such things, one man's beautiful golden jewelry is another man's gaudy excess. If anything I think this nicely underlines the fundamental subjectivity of value.

I see you're responding in defence of you overall position. However, I mearly stated that some metals do, in fact, have a historical utility. Would your longer response counter this?

Edit - I believe ive been redundant here. If you ignore this question I'd understand.

 

[georg jetson]

Somewhat busy today so I don't have time to make the reply I'd like to, but for now...



True, but I would respond in turn that the utility of gold and silver as jewelry is a form of essentially artistic expression, and with all such things, one man's beautiful golden jewelry is another man's gaudy excess. If anything I think this nicely underlines the fundamental subjectivity of value.

My response... take 2

Your assertion that gold and silver had no historical utility was your basis for dismissing much of Freedom1man's argument. Now that you've stipulated otherwise how do you respond?

 

[marshaul]

My response... take 2

Your assertion that gold and silver had no historical utility was your basis for dismissing much of Freedom1man's argument. Now that you've stipulated otherwise how do you respond?

Trying to keep the fact that there are two separate arguments straight...

1. Value is arbitrary and assigned.

2. While perceptions of utility are the primary driver of value, these perceptions (in particular regarding "exchange utility") may be driven by consensus rather than by any inherent utility.

(Note that consensus-driven value creates a sort of circular logic, "X is valued because people value X", which may appear very much like "inherent value".)

So, the question is whether its inherent usefulness drove its historical valuation, or whether it was valued because it was rare, shiny, and other folks seemed to value it to.

Despite being provided with a few examples of historical uses, none of them really seem substantial enough to constitute the primary driving force. (What was the overall medical usage of silver up to the year 1800?) So I still remain convinced that for most of history gold and silver were valued by consensus, rather than due to inherent usefulness.

Interestingly, with most things the perceptions of utility are fairly coupled to their inherent usefulness. This does not seem to be the case with exchange media, however. It's clear that, with an established exchange medium, experience i.e. demonstrated purchasing power, is the most important factor. Of course, that says little about what drives the valuation of a new exchange medium.

It would seem that scarcity is the primary driving factor of that, coupled with a bit of the "shiny factor". Wampum, for instance, while certainly not gold, were likely valued far more for these reasons than for their inherent usefulness.

(As a bit of an aside, it's been argued that lack of usefulness is actually important to the initial valuation of many precious metals and gems, as their continued scarcity would seem to be guaranteed, as lack of utility implies reduced incentive to discover more. I'm not sure I buy this, but it's still an interesting thought.)

 

[Haz.]

This is the god's honest truth.

Without complicating the discussion. Am I a slave, in what is supposed to be a free country?

Coal miners are retired at age 60 down under. Our government is now hinting at raising the elgebility age for the retirement pension for all Australians from age 65 for men and women to 70!

I was seriously injured in a mine accident at age 55. My workers comp application was accepted by our insurer as the mine accepted responsibility. Then some weeks later it was denied! Why? I was told by my barrister after it was all finally settled, because of the 9-11 disaster. All insurance companies world wide closed ranks and refused all claims until proven in a court of law. There by, my family and I lived on our lifes savings until the court case was lodged. We lived on thin air after that while it proceeded.

Finally, I reached the normal retirement age of 65, and I applied for the pension and guess what? I was nocked back. Why, because I had too many assets. My life's work, paying huge amounts of tax and despite this, gathering assets for my future and my children's and their children's future, all went against me and mine?

At the same time, then, alleged refugees, boat people who fly to Indonesia, and then by the hundreds every year, get on a smugglers boat and as advised by smugglers throw their passports and papers overboard are accepted and given everything aged pensioners are entitled to without ever having worked one day here?

I was told, after working all my life here until injured and thrown on the scrap heap, come back next year and we may look at your application again????????

Thanks Australia!

Now I can leave here if I so decide, but where would I go? My children are all married, work here, they dont want me to leave and they cannot follow me. We also have a departure tax!

I apologise for my rant.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

You make a good point Haz about the "choice" or "freedom" to leave. How do you leave, what does it cost you to leave, who is a better master anymore.