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Man kills 2 cops in apparent retaliation for police killings NYC

utbagpiper

Banned
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Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
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Utah
Sorry Charley, but privileges are not rights. What the state givith the state can easily take away.

IMO people who think that state provided privileges are rights are indeed statists.

Inasmuch as I've been polite enough to post under my real name, I will kindly ask that you refrain from using diminutive forms such as "charley" to address me. Even the old tuna commercial which popularized your "sorry..." phrase was not showing any respect to the cartoon character thus addressed.

Charles or utbagpiper, please, WalkingWolf. This is not a large thing to ask and is the very minimal of civility that any polite society or decent man should show to another.

I've been quite clear that I recognize the difference between privileges and rights. There should no reason to think otherwise.

I've simply made the case that permits and privileges have been part of a demonstrably successful journey to regain recognition of our rights.

Perhaps some other journey could have yielded the same or even better results. I don't know how anyone would support such a claim. But the history on permits and statutory recognition leading to ever greater statutory recognition leading to constitutional recognition is clear. Not as fast as we'd like, I know.

Nor is there anything uniquely troubling about privileges being subject to revocation. Notice how our RKBA has been subject to limits, rules, and outright bans for the entire history of our nation and especially through the 20th century. (For blacks the limits on their RKBA have been even worse, and much longer standing.) The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. No court ruling, no constitutional language, nothing save eternal vigilance will protect any of our rights. Admittedly, revoking statutory permit language is a lower bar than overturning (either via amendment or through judicial fiat) constitutional provisions. But all rights, all freedoms and liberty are at risk always and forever.

The relevant question is whether we are headed the correct direction in any given subject area. On RKBA I believe we are headed the right direction generally, despite a couple of recent losses in one or two States.

Charles
 

OC Freedom

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Feb 20, 2014
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646
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ADA County, ID
Though my post was of a specific incident, my "oppression" statement was really meant to be more general.
It's a culmination of government control as a whole not just the increase in police power/abuse.
The crazy taxation. The relentless bans without any need for justification. The increase in surveillance and citizen tracking. The draconian regulation and licensing. The blatant and open disregard for privacy and general freedom as long as it's in the name of "security".

Preach it Brother, You're so d@mn RIGHT!
 

OC Freedom

Regular Member
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Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
I agree that, as a personal matter, the best thing is simply to not buy a home with an HOA attached. And I do agree that individuals have a right to agree with other individuals not to have pink flamingos in their yards.

But I continue to dispute the fundamental validity of the "consent" behind most real-world HOAs, as well as the inherent validity of contracts which attach themselves to things (especially things of infinite duration and finite supply, such as land) rather than people. As a result I dispute your contention that HOAs are no more than a pure, innocent extension of harmless natural rights. The mere semantic conception of a "homeowners association" does indeed have a defensible basis in right in some theoretical manner divorced from reality, but where real-world HOAs exceed this defensible basis is where my problem begins.

Again: inter-generational ratcheting. The possibility must necessary follow from certain forms of contracts (HOAs being the obvious example). I submit that inter-generational ratchets (which eventually forcibly include everybody) are on their face an outcome incompatible with right, and that therefore the ability to enter into contracts which imply the possibility of such an outcome cannot be a right. You're as free as I to decide exactly how to differentiate these facially invalid contracts from the rest (I admit I don't have a satisfactory criterion, at least yet), or of course to continue to ignore the "fully ratcheted outcome" and/or implicitly deny its invalidity.

Very well explained, I read it more than once to let it soak in.

The only way I would except an HOA is if they pay my mortgage and taxes, until that time they can KISS OFF, if I want x/y/z, that's my business.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Very well explained, I read it more than once to let it soak in.

The only way I would except an HOA is if they pay my mortgage and taxes, until that time they can KISS OFF, if I want x/y/z, that's my business.

A friend of mine and I had the HOA police harass us for shrimping. This only lasted until a FMP showed up to tell them to bugger off they had no authority. It broke my heart to see them slink off with their tail between their legs.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
Inasmuch as I've been polite enough to post under my real name, I will kindly ask that you refrain from using diminutive forms such as "charley" to address me. Even the old tuna commercial which popularized your "sorry..." phrase was not showing any respect to the cartoon character thus addressed.

Charles or utbagpiper, please, WalkingWolf. This is not a large thing to ask and is the very minimal of civility that any polite society or decent man should show to another.

<snip>

Thanks Eye ! Can never be enough civility.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
I agree that, as a personal matter, the best thing is simply to not buy a home with an HOA attached. And I do agree that individuals have a right to agree with other individuals not to have pink flamingos in their yards.

Thank you. We are agreed that the best way to avoid offenses is to avoid voluntary associations that one finds offensive.


But I continue to dispute the fundamental validity of the "consent" behind most real-world HOAs, as well as the inherent validity of contracts which attach themselves to things (especially things of infinite duration and finite supply, such as land) rather than people. As a result I dispute your contention that HOAs are no more than a pure, innocent extension of harmless natural rights. The mere semantic conception of a "homeowners association" does indeed have a defensible basis in right in some theoretical manner divorced from reality, but where real-world HOAs exceed this defensible basis is where my problem begins.

Again: inter-generational ratcheting. The possibility must necessary follow from certain forms of contracts (HOAs being the obvious example). I submit that inter-generational ratchets (which eventually forcibly include everybody) are on their face an outcome incompatible with right, and that therefore the ability to enter into contracts which imply the possibility of such an outcome cannot be a right. You're as free as I to decide exactly how to differentiate these facially invalid contracts from the rest (I admit I don't have a satisfactory criterion, at least yet), or of course to continue to ignore the "fully ratcheted outcome" and/or implicitly deny its invalidity.

In the first place, while the supply of land in this world and our nation is "finite" in the theoretical sense, in the practical sense there is far more land than will ever be used. 300 million persons in a nation with a continental land area of 3 million square miles (plus some lakes and other water) and another 600,000+ square miles in Alaska means that every man, woman, and child in this nation could spread out with over 6 acres of land per person. Maximum expected population will decrease that slightly, but not much in about 50 years, and then our population is projected to contract.

What we have is a limited amount of land right where people want to live: Long Island, California beach front, Martha's Vineyard, etc. I would guess that well under 10% of the homes in my State are subject to HOAs and the majority of HOAs probably exist on apartments and condos where more rules are required for keeping the peace in such high density that would be needed for single-family dwellings, much less for rural living. One has to go looking for a home with an HOA.

More importantly, you assume a ratcheting affect while I hold out the reality that HOA rules can be changed or even abolished by the vote of the membership. So long as the HOA rules have the effect of maintaining or raising resale value, no reason to abolish or much alter them. Should the tide turn and society decide they like pink flamingos or keeping 14 dogs in backyard kennels in residential neighborhoods, I expect the owners will change the rules to suit their purposes.

Indeed, I find HOAs or similar private contracts far preferable to the much more common city zoning to which I have always been subjected. Most such zoning can be changed by a simple majority vote of a 3 to 7 member city council who most often will not be at all affected by the zoning. Such changes might impose additional restrictions on my land usage. Or they might open up usage to (usually one politically favored) neighbor that everyone else finds disagreeable or unwanted. At least with a properly formed HOA, some kind of majority or super-majority vote of those in the neighborhood and who will be personally affected is required to make changes.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Though my post was of a specific incident, my "oppression" statement was really meant to be more general.
It's a culmination of government control as a whole not just the increase in police power/abuse.
The crazy taxation. The relentless bans without any need for justification. The increase in surveillance and citizen tracking. The draconian regulation and licensing. The blatant and open disregard for privacy and general freedom as long as it's in the name of "security".

And that is fair game. Interesting that so many decided to take such personal offense at my post offering a different perspective.

I get the general sentiment. Frankly, I share it at an emotional level. It is when I dig into the specifics that I find myself scratching my head. We can find some specific examples of increasing government control. But we also have to concede a lot of areas where government has less control or at least has chosen to exercise it less than it has at least in the recent past.

Our practical ability to carry firearms for self-defense without risk of jail time is a huge area.

Sexual and reproductive privacy is another, along with expanded definitions of what constitutes a marriage. Privacy laws and court rulings have always lagged technology, but in general it seems to me the courts are respecting privacy about as well as they ever have in terms of what is needed to search a cell phone, the conditions and limits of a warrantless search, etc.

Several other examples can also be had.

I wonder if the problem is not so much government being more oppressive, but that everyone is having something forced on them they find oppressive.

I doubt Clive Bundy took up arms because of police brutality in NY or NSA snooping. He was upset about a single issue: federal land policies in the Western US. Most folks east of Kanas don't have a clue of these but 60% of my State's land mass is under federal control rather than State, local, or private control. West of the Kansas/Colorado line this is the rule. I doubt anyone in Virginia or NY is upset by this. Many actively support keeping my State and other Western States in subjection this way.

But some are really upset by increased limits on elective abortion, just as some remain very upset about having to tolerate elective abortion at all.

Some are upset that their local laws and constitutions have been overturned in favor of forcing their State to recognize homosexual unions as "marriages." Many others will get more upset as "anti-discrimination" laws force men of faith to either close up shop, or to give public assent to such unions with wedding cakes, wedding photographs, renting of reception centers, etc.

A lot of us are upset about taxes to fund socialized medicine or inter-generational welfare.

Others are upset about "corporate welfare".

I think the nationalization of policies and laws is causing all of us to have something to be upset about even if in total, "oppression" isn't actually increasing. I think all of us are being subjected to some laws we find really disagreeable. Nationalization, or the elimination of federalism becomes the real problem, I think maybe, more than an increase in the total level of "oppression".

On the flip side, I suspect the quickest way to start all out warfare in this nation would not involve any police nor military brutality at all. Just stop delivering welfare checks and within about a week of them being overdue, we'd have massive riots, looting, and decent people would have no choice but to take up arms to defend themselves.

I also suspect that Mike Brown would have found it very oppressive to be arrested (no matter how gently or politely) for robbing that store (assuming he is the one in the security video).

The local Salt Lake media has been reporting on a shooting at a police officer. It can be read at the Deseret News for free and without any registration. The accused looks to be a long time criminal and gang members whose crimes involve theft and burglary as well as car theft. These are real crimes against individuals, that have nothing to do with government oppression or needless bans. I doubt very much the suspect is shooting at cops over any legitimate sense of oppression, but is simply upset that he can't have his way with the weaker members of society.

There are criminals who reject any authority, reject any respect for others' rights. Such persons will naturally resent any authority or personification of authority that impedes them in their desires to rape, pillage, and plunder.

Gang banger types seem to love an eye for an eye or two eyes for one eye, where every insult or slight must be returned many fold.

In brief, I think we ought to give some real thought to what actually motivates various incidents.

I think it a shame that so many (Nationally) seem to have grabbed onto the police shooting of Mike Brown as their poster child for police abuse. A lot of us see a shooting that, while perhaps avoidable with better training or tactics, looks to be entirely justified. You've probably never heard of the death of Danielle Willard here in the SLC area. Flat out bad shoot by dirty cops. The Salt Lake Tribune has several decent articles on it including the linked. Ultimately, the judge dismissed charges at the preliminary hearing. Miscarriage of justice as far as I'm concerned.

We have some problems to solve. But if we allow real criminals to make hay of legitimate problems we impede the ability to fix those problems.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Jul 5, 2006
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Utah
Charles you write entirely too many words...haha.

I think in regards to oppression and tyranny we are also not even mentioning the spying and data collection going on, or the fact that this country has now admitted to torturing "war criminals" with zero due process.

I freely own my own verbosity. I am not at all succinct. I'm sorry. It is a weakness.

Interestingly, just over 50% of the nation (according to one of those random polls you question so much) is ok with the use of "enhanced interrogation" techniques against terrorists. This shouldn't surprise us. I recall reading that very few in Britain had any problems with the carpet bombing of German cities during WWII. After the airstrikes against London, they figured the Germans deserved it...in addition to whatever effect the bombings had on reducing the German ability and resolve to make war. Ditto for the US firebombing of Tokyo (killed more civilians than the A-bomb) or even the A-bombs. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, dragged us into a war we had worked hard to avoid, and had it coming, seems to have been prevailing sentiment for quite some time following the war....even before the details of Bataan came out.

A desire for revenge, or a willingness to see the enemy mistreated is human nature. We can hardly be surprised if large segments of our nation are not entirely opposed to making terrorists uncomfortable after watching videos of the Twin Towers come down, or seeing our service members beheaded and their bodies desecrated in the streets.

What is remarkable about our fellow countrymen is how they responded after the war was won: the rebuilding of Germany (and really so much of Europe) and Japan, not with vengeance, but with an eye to a lasting peace. Even currently, whatever mistakes have been made (including quite possibly the mistake of entering a ground war in the first place), a major concern seems to be whether we can leave middle east nations as better places than we found them. It may be a fool's errand to even try. But the desire to try demonstrates a certain goodness of our nation's people.

As for spying and such, it is a concern. But for most of us it remains a theoretical concern. People who post every detail of their live on facebook or twitter, who long for a shot at a "reality" TV show and 15 seconds of fame don't REALLY care much about privacy. They say they do. But their actions speak much louder than their words. Which isn't to say it isn't something to fix. It just means it isn't something that motivates very many people in very many aspects of their lives.

Charles
 

J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
The last 7 pages of this thread have created such a dang mess of a red herring that it literally kills the thread.

In response to the op- it's undoubtedly an oppressive culture in the government. There is no question, in my opinion. We used to have lawyers go to law school and be able to practice law in any arena. Nowadays? So much on the books it takes specializing in one type of law.

Sadly, WE THE PEOPLE have gotten what we have asked for. When you drive for government help in large quantities, and trust a huge conglomerate mess of budgeting and law - making to socialize everything you can think of, you are asking for rights infringement.

The worst problem I see, is that those that are sick of thr system fail to have a better option, or at least having a way out of this system. Anarchy, in my opinion, will never happen peacefully without possibly millions of lives lost.

One thing I can respect very much about charles' views is that he has shown and demonstrated a willingness to work with congressmen and legislature to change what is on the books. It may very well be impossible to do, but with all the anti-statist rhetoric on this forum, I have yet to see many viable alternative options thrown out. I would think with a place as large as this forum, we could organize chapters all around the us and sponsor local candidates that can change oppression for us all locally first.

But sadly, all I see here lately is people looking for reasons to argue and b*tch.

Pardon my blunt language.
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
I wonder if the problem is not so much government being more oppressive, but that everyone is having something forced on them they find oppressive.

This is one in the same. It doesn't matter the driving force, if the government is the implement of it.

I think it a shame that so many (Nationally) seem to have grabbed onto the police shooting of Mike Brown as their poster child for police abuse.

In this I wholly agree. I have no real opinion as far as MB is concerned because of the conflicting evidence. (Although the prosecutor clearly did wrong using a known liar as a key witness).
There is a deep divide where freedom lovers are supporting a cause that is mainly a black vs white cops issue when the larger issue of bad cops vs citizens should be focus.
 

The Truth

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Logan 5

Regular Member
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Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
Gong back to the original post, I have to say that a person has the right to defend themselves from an unlawful arrest. If it means utilizing deadly force, then I suppose that's what it takes.

But to kill two cops that are doing nothing to harm the killer, in fact they are doing nothing, THAT is unacceptable. It is not killing, it is murder.


OTOH, like that incident a few years ago where a cop did a side kick to a drunk woman he has sitting on the curb while her hands are cuffed behind her back, it is people like him that justify the act.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
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Valhalla
Gentlmen, please stay on topic. Take personal comments to PM, but be sure to mind the rules there also.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
Grape, you train cops. What would you reaction be in a couple of these scenarios, if they were cops you trained?
1. Two cops minding their own business are executed.
2. A dozen cops cuff and beat a hispanic man who's trying to keep his wife and daughter from fighting (Moore, OK).
3. A handful of cops invade an 85 year old man's home and shoot him to death, only to find out the address on the warrant is two blocks away.
4. Cop releases a woman after arresting her for shoplifting, then buys the food she stole and gave it to her.
5. Cop tazes a man keeping him from going into a burning house in search of his son (who died in the fire).

Nosy people want to know!
 
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