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Clark County Handgun Registration program revisited

DVC

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Oh, and I'm not being threatened with anything... yet. I haven't been accused of anything... just engaging you and others in conversation. ;o)

We are ALL threatened, whether or not we are anywhere near Clark County.

That's what government IS -- the threat of force if you don't obey.

Oh, Oh, and as far as numbers of individuals having been cited or in fact punished for violation... seems to me that could be the subject of a NORA request. It would take the County some "diggin" perhaps but they'd have to respond with "something." Maybe a NORA request for "numbers" back through 1965... or at least back through 2007? Might also ask for actual "numbers" of registrations. Hey, this could be fun.

A LOT of fun!

This law could be one which has never been enforced, which would mean that they have no precedent to fall back on regarding the decision to prosecute. With a 6 months or $500 hit, I wouldn't be too eager to prosecute, because doing so would be more trouble than it's worth. A conviction would be easy to obtain (unless the defense were a FIJA call regarding the validity of the law), but would almost certainly be overturned on appeal AND result in the law being spiked.

Does the county or municipality get a fee for processing blue cards? If so, they wouldn't be too eager to see that money go away, and the DEFINITELY won't want to lose that power over the citizens.
 

DVC

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So not only is the question of how many cases have been solved with county registration, but how many people have been cited for failure to register and of those cited, how many convictions? Then assuming the answers are nearly zero and zero, factoring in the cost of the program all these years to both county and cities, it would be strong incentive, with lots of press coverage, for the county commission to do away with it here on a local level.

The costs may be absorbed into the main budget. Do that hire people to deal with the blue cards, or is it just something that whoever is handy gets tasked with?

The attack is simple: First, go to the County Commission meeting and ask them what good the regulation HAS DONE in the decades since it was put in place. Not what it COULD do, demand actual proof that it has been worth the time and trouble so far. Then ask them if it's worth what it will cost to prosecute the "impending test case," the appeal if lost, and the lawsuit to follow.

That should be enough to get the commissioners to give this some thought. Once you get them thinking, there is the possibility that they will spike it rather than deal with the trouble that you're warning about.

If they DON'T move, then you need the test case to get legal standing to challenge the regulation.
 

DVC

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We have a recent plaintiff that went to Jail for a unregistered firearm, that was registered 8 months previous, We have the proof. the other part of the puzzle is the fact that every firearm registrant in Clark County is exposed to the incarceration this guy was, we could be talking Class Action. If we start pledging donations to show that we are serious, I belive I have an experienced Attorney who would look at it. we would need to get a crew together to be class plaintiffs and decision makers, What do you think?

I think that the fact that he registered messes things up for spiking the blue card (he complied and they lost the record, not the same as demanding the same rights that the rest of us in Nevada enjoy). What you need is someone to REFUSE to obey the regulation.

However, he has an EXCELLENT case for false arrest, SHOULD sue, and demand an end to the blue card scheme as part of the settlement under which he was wrongly incarcerated.

How long was he jailed? Was this after trial, or did they arrest then nol pros and let him go?

Was there any other offense involved (even if not prosecuted)? Was the arrest SOLELY for not having a blue card?

How did the whole thing start (how did they know that he had a firearm, etc)?

I would want to know more before putting faith and money behind this, but if it is a clear case, I'll do what I can to help.
 

DVC

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What do we need to do in order to qualify as a plaintiff?

For a viable lawsuit? You need to show either A), that you have suffered a quantifiable injury (a loss of some sort), or B), that the regulation has had a provable "chilling effect."

In other words, if you sue because your feelings are hurt, you will lose. If _I_ sue, I will lose because I'm not affected by the blue card scheme.

If you sue because of the lost time and money, you have standing (you have suffered injury), which opens the window of opportunity for a tactic which is expensive, but very effective. You can sue the county for this minor injury, and probably lose. Then you can sue them AGAIN after losing, over and over, one suit for each firearm which you have registered under the blue-card scheme (three pistols, three separate injuries, three separate lawsuits).

When you run out, someone else takes over. Or maybe you get a dozen people to sue, all on the same day.

You have to get the government's permission to sue (or, more precisely, you have to get the government to refuse any other suitable correction). This means that your first stop is the City or County Attorney. You present your grievance and demand for recompense, in this case for the time that you spent (at your normal wage) and the costs of going to get the firearm registered. Take your grievances IN WRITING, IN PERSON, one at a time (and don't gather in one place beforehand). Your demand will be either ignored or refused -- get this IN WRITING -- at which time you are able to file suit.

Every case must be heard, even if summarily dismissed, and there are only so many courtrooms and judges. BTW, if you do this, DO NOT accept "commissioners," pro-tems or anything other than a full, elected judge to hear the case. A judge pro-tempore can be appointed or a warm body commissioned as fast as they make deputies in John Wayne movies ("Hold up your hand and say 'I do!'") -- but they have to ask whether you accept them or not, so DON'T.

The filing fee won't cover the costs of the resources that they will be required to provide, and if enough of you play this game, they won't have the resources necessary to hear each case within a reasonable time (they may put them together as a class, or the judge may assembly-line the cases ("John Smith? Your case is without basis and therefore summarily dismissed. Jane Doe? Your case is without basis and therefore summarily dismissed . . ."). This is the argument AGAINST everyone filing on the same day, because they will be heard on the same day. If you file on separate days, you get separate court dates -- when the county figures out what's going on, they will try to bring them all together on the same date, but you can refuse to accept those changes. However, if you do all go in, you can request changes of court dates as well, to spread out the hearings.

The objective is to make it too much trouble to deal with you, enough so that the clear solution is to remove (or allow vacation of) the regulation. This is such an effective tactic that variations have been used a number of times.

This, BTW, is how Jesse Jackson became a multi-millionaire. He got his rent-a-mob to go into banks and other businesses to make small transactions while demanding extra service (such as taking in jars of pennies to make payment, opening accounts then immediately closing them, sending in hundreds of people to get change for one dollar each, etc). The banks and businesses would spend the whole day making no money, with their regular customers being unable to get their own business done -- the next day, Jackson would offer them a chance to end the trouble, and part of the solution was the businesses "donating" to Jackson's "civic organization."

The bottom line is that if the regulation offers little (or no) advantage to the people with authority to void it, just make it too expensive to keep and they will get rid of it.
 
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The Big Guy

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The costs may be absorbed into the main budget. Do that hire people to deal with the blue cards, or is it just something that whoever is handy gets tasked with?

Directly or indirectly there is a cost involved in man-hours. Fewer man-hours needed to run the department, the fewer employees needed. So yes, they do have to have staff to handle it. It has been my experience that I have kept the duty cop tied up for 20 minutes to a half hour for each firearm. I don't know what then goes on behind the scene to shuffle the paperwork. when you add up all the time for every transaction over all the years it has been in existence, it adds up no matter how you look at it.

TBG
 

The Big Guy

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For a viable lawsuit? You need to show either A), that you have suffered a quantifiable injury (a loss of some sort), or B), that the regulation has had a provable "chilling effect."

In other words, if you sue because your feelings are hurt, you will lose. If _I_ sue, I will lose because I'm not affected by the blue card scheme.

If you sue because of the lost time and money, you have standing (you have suffered injury), which opens the window of opportunity for a tactic which is expensive, but very effective. You can sue the county for this minor injury, and probably lose. Then you can sue them AGAIN after losing, over and over, one suit for each firearm which you have registered under the blue-card scheme (three pistols, three separate injuries, three separate lawsuits).

When you run out, someone else takes over. Or maybe you get a dozen people to sue, all on the same day.

You have to get the government's permission to sue (or, more precisely, you have to get the government to refuse any other suitable correction). This means that your first stop is the City or County Attorney. You present your grievance and demand for recompense, in this case for the time that you spent (at your normal wage) and the costs of going to get the firearm registered. Take your grievances IN WRITING, IN PERSON, one at a time (and don't gather in one place beforehand). Your demand will be either ignored or refused -- get this IN WRITING -- at which time you are able to file suit.

Every case must be heard, even if summarily dismissed, and there are only so many courtrooms and judges. BTW, if you do this, DO NOT accept "commissioners," pro-tems or anything other than a full, elected judge to hear the case. A judge pro-tempore can be appointed or a warm body commissioned as fast as they make deputies in John Wayne movies ("Hold up your hand and say 'I do!'") -- but they have to ask whether you accept them or not, so DON'T.

The filing fee won't cover the costs of the resources that they will be required to provide, and if enough of you play this game, they won't have the resources necessary to hear each case within a reasonable time (they may put them together as a class, or the judge may assembly-line the cases ("John Smith? Your case is without basis and therefore summarily dismissed. Jane Doe? Your case is without basis and therefore summarily dismissed . . ."). This is the argument AGAINST everyone filing on the same day, because they will be heard on the same day. If you file on separate days, you get separate court dates -- when the county figures out what's going on, they will try to bring them all together on the same date, but you can refuse to accept those changes. However, if you do all go in, you can request changes of court dates as well, to spread out the hearings.

The objective is to make it too much trouble to deal with you, enough so that the clear solution is to remove (or allow vacation of) the regulation. This is such an effective tactic that variations have been used a number of times.

This, BTW, is how Jesse Jackson became a multi-millionaire. He got his rent-a-mob to go into banks and other businesses to make small transactions while demanding extra service (such as taking in jars of pennies to make payment, opening accounts then immediately closing them, sending in hundreds of people to get change for one dollar each, etc). The banks and businesses would spend the whole day making no money, with their regular customers being unable to get their own business done -- the next day, Jackson would offer them a chance to end the trouble, and part of the solution was the businesses "donating" to Jackson's "civic organization."

The bottom line is that if the regulation offers little (or no) advantage to the people with authority to void it, just make it too expensive to keep and they will get rid of it.

Wouldn't gun shops in CC have standing because of the increased man-hours and paperwork?

TBG
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

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Wouldn't gun shops in CC have standing because of the increased man-hours and paperwork?

TBG

My feeling is the gun shops are a no go, the Govt, has always been able to regulate business in heavier manor than the individual, such as forcing businesses to collect taxes for the Govt.

On another note DVC brought up some good foundational questions, I am going to the law office today, so I will talk about those in respect to this case. the Attoirney has read police reports etc. already so I think it will be a simple question.
 

The Big Guy

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Questions for the City of Henderson.

I am in the process of writing to the City of Henderson to get statistics on the cost in man-hours of running the blue card registration as required by county law, crimes solved by the Henderson Police as a result of the this program, any arrests for not registering and convictions. I expect this is to go in circles for a while until I can find out who can get the information I'm requesting.

I know that Metro is being worked on, who can work on Boulder City and N. Las Vegas? We need this information from all involved to get a more accurate picture of the cost v usefulness of the program.

TBG
 
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Eveofwar

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I think that the fact that he registered messes things up for spiking the blue card (he complied and they lost the record, not the same as demanding the same rights that the rest of us in Nevada enjoy). What you need is someone to REFUSE to obey the regulation.

However, he has an EXCELLENT case for false arrest, SHOULD sue, and demand an end to the blue card scheme as part of the settlement under which he was wrongly incarcerated.

How long was he jailed? Was this after trial, or did they arrest then nol pros and let him go?

Was there any other offense involved (even if not prosecuted)? Was the arrest SOLELY for not having a blue card?

How did the whole thing start (how did they know that he had a firearm, etc)?

I would want to know more before putting faith and money behind this, but if it is a clear case, I'll do what I can to help.

DVC, I thought I'd take the time to respond to your questions, as I'm the one that DTOM is referring to.

I was jailed for the crime of "possession of an unregistered firearm" (Clark County Code 12.04.200) stayed ~18 hours and posted $1000 bail to be released (OR was denied...on my first offense for a misdemeanor ?!). I received a letter from the DA roughly 1 week after the arrest stating they would drop charges and refund bail, but can bring charges again if they desire and facts warrant it (good luck).

I repeated to the officers multiple times that I have a blue card and am not required to keep it on my person. Have photos from LVMPD substation that state they suggest you DO NOT keep the blue card in the same place as the firearm.

A "concerned citizen" called Metro to report a "non-threatening individual walking down the street with a gun".

It's a clear "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride" case, and at this point I'm really looking to move forward.

Handgun was registered 5 months prior to the incident and handguns were drawn at me and I was placed in handcuffs at gunpoint. Pretty big deal I think.

Let me know what information you need from me. I have full audio and video recording of the incident. This needs to be put to rest.

Big thanks to Tim and DTOM for everything they've helped me with.
 
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DVC

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Directly or indirectly there is a cost involved in man-hours.

What we want is for there to be an obvious, separate cost that we can point out to the commissioners. Something that shows this being a drain on resources which could be spent elsewhere . . .as opposed to if the cop doing it has nothing better to do (for instance, one on reduced duty).

Remember that the objective in whatever you do about the blue cards is to show that they are more cost and trouble than they are worth. If you can stand up and say "This costs us $20K per year in lost police man-hours, and has never helped solve a crime," the commissioners don't see anything about rights -- they see $20K going down the drain.

That figure goes way up if you guys down there start filing lawsuits.
 

DVC

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My feeling is the gun shops are a no go, the Govt, has always been able to regulate business in heavier manor than the individual, such as forcing businesses to collect taxes for the Govt.

Gun shops are a NOGO because it's not fair to expect them to risk their livelihoods and investment by making enemies of the people who decide whether or not they can be in business.
 

DVC

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DVC, I thought I'd take the time to respond to your questions, as I'm the one that DTOM is referring to.

I was jailed for the crime of "possession of an unregistered firearm" (Clark County Code 12.04.200) stayed ~18 hours and posted $1000 bail to be released (OR was denied...on my first offense for a misdemeanor ?!). I received a letter from the DA roughly 1 week after the arrest stating they would drop charges and refund bail, but can bring charges again if they desire and facts warrant it (good luck).

The DA found your registration record. The warning about re-filing is standard when charges are dropped before trial (the minute a defendant appears in court to answer a charge, double jeopardy accrues).

I repeated to the officers multiple times that I have a blue card and am not required to keep it on my person. Have photos from LVMPD substation that state they suggest you DO NOT keep the blue card in the same place as the firearm.

Cops don't know the law -- the issue, however, is that you HAD registered and they either failed to check, the check didn't find your registration, or they decided to play games with you. ANY of these is grounds for a false arrest lawsuit. The obligation is on the government's part to show that you have failed to comply.

A "concerned citizen" called Metro to report a "non-threatening individual walking down the street with a gun".

Oh, yeah, HER again . . !

You can subpoena the recording of the call. The time of call should be on the police report (you DO have a copy of the police report, right?).

It's a clear "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride" case, and at this point I'm really looking to move forward.

Handgun was registered 5 months prior to the incident and handguns were drawn at me and I was placed in handcuffs at gunpoint. Pretty big deal I think.

Let me know what information you need from me. I have full audio and video recording of the incident. This needs to be put to rest.

Big thanks to Tim and DTOM for everything they've helped me with.

I think the best way to put it to rest is after you cash the check. I would find an attorney down there with a good record of lawsuit wins against the city or county. I wouldn't want to suggest an amount to demand, but make it BIG to shake them up. Go to the media (especially Vin S).
 

DVC

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I am in the process of writing to the City of Henderson to get statistics on the cost in man-hours of running the blue card registration as required by county law, crimes solved by the Henderson Police as a result of the this program, any arrests for not registering and convictions. I expect this is to go in circles for a while until I can find out who can get the information I'm requesting.

You can turn inside their circle if you suggest that you will run with an average of 30 minutes per registration, times the number of registrations in town. They will probably write back to brag that the average is only 10 minutes or somesuch.

If they don't give you a more accurate number, use 30 minutes with the disclaimer that it may be MORE, because the PD likes the claim of a 30-minute average.
 

The Big Guy

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Initial letter requesting info.

07/02/12



Patrick E. Moers
Interim Police Chief
Henderson Police Department
P.O. Box 95050
Henderson, NV 89009-5050


Chief Moers,

I am writing to ask for information regarding the “Blue Card” handgun registration. Specifically cost v benefit to the City of Henderson for operation of this county program.


  1. The cost in man-hours to the Henderson Police Department on an annual basis?
  2. Any associated costs of this program for the City of Henderson on an annual basis?
  3. The number of cases solved with arrests and convictions made by Henderson Police as a direct result of the program since its inception?
  4. The number of arrests and convictions made by Henderson Police for failure to comply with this county ordinance since its inception.

Your anticipated help regarding this information will be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely


TBG
 

Eveofwar

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The DA found your registration record. The warning about re-filing is standard when charges are dropped before trial (the minute a defendant appears in court to answer a charge, double jeopardy accrues).



Cops don't know the law -- the issue, however, is that you HAD registered and they either failed to check, the check didn't find your registration, or they decided to play games with you. ANY of these is grounds for a false arrest lawsuit. The obligation is on the government's part to show that you have failed to comply.



Oh, yeah, HER again . . !

You can subpoena the recording of the call. The time of call should be on the police report (you DO have a copy of the police report, right?).



I think the best way to put it to rest is after you cash the check. I would find an attorney down there with a good record of lawsuit wins against the city or county. I wouldn't want to suggest an amount to demand, but make it BIG to shake them up. Go to the media (especially Vin S).

I've already done most, if not all of the leg work. I have the 911/311 calls, dispatcher radio traffic, my firearms registration information from LVMPD dated 5 months prior to the arrest, my arrest report, and the CAD report for the incident. I really need/want someone to spearhead this, because it's a clear-cut case IMO. Not to mention moving towards getting rid of this stupid blue card registration system that is obviously failed and was the reason for my arrest.

According to the arrest report, they tried multiple different systems to check for the registration, but it came back with nothing. Playing games to the max.

I've given a few "intakes" for a couple false arrest attorneys, but none have called me back or even showed the slightest of interest.

Any recommendations at this point would be awesome.
 
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The Big Guy

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I've already done most, if not all of the leg work. I have the 911/311 calls, dispatcher radio traffic, my firearms registration information from LVMPD dated 5 months prior to the arrest, my arrest report, and the CAD report for the incident. I really need/want someone to spearhead this, because it's a clear-cut case IMO. Not to mention moving towards getting rid of this stupid blue card registration system that is obviously failed and was the reason for my arrest.

According to the arrest report, they tried multiple different systems to check for the registration, but it came back with nothing. Playing games to the max.

I've given a few "intakes" for a couple false arrest attorneys, but none have called me back or even showed the slightest of interest.

Any recommendations at this point would be awesome.

If a legal action were to bear fruit in this case, it would be further evidence that it is a burdensome, ineffective program. Come to think of it, even if you were prosecuted and convicted, it would prove that it is just another law that makes criminals out of law abiding citizens, at a cost to the taxpayer with no benefit in safety and the bad guys run free.

TBG
 

MrOverlay

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The DA found your registration record. The warning about re-filing is standard when charges are dropped before trial (the minute a defendant appears in court to answer a charge, double jeopardy accrues).



Cops don't know the law -- the issue, however, is that you HAD registered and they either failed to check, the check didn't find your registration, or they decided to play games with you. ANY of these is grounds for a false arrest lawsuit. The obligation is on the government's part to show that you have failed to comply.



Oh, yeah, HER again . . !

You can subpoena the recording of the call. The time of call should be on the police report (you DO have a copy of the police report, right?).



I think the best way to put it to rest is after you cash the check. I would find an attorney down there with a good record of lawsuit wins against the city or county. I wouldn't want to suggest an amount to demand, but make it BIG to shake them up. Go to the media (especially Vin S).

Not picking a fight, but can you provide a cite that jeopardy attaches (accrues) the minute a defendent appears in court? Are you saying when he walks into the courtroom jeopardy attaches (accrues).
 
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