Women and OC

[TotinMama]

Hello everyone. I'm a new member, but have been lurking for quite some time. I appreciate the (usually :lol intelligent and thoughtful discussions here.

I've CC'd for over 20 years, but never felt comfortable OCing. I never had confidence in my ability to fend off a real attempt to grab my firearm. But now that I'm...ahem... "well" into middle age I've been having conversations with my husband around me OCing while hiking and bike riding alone. He is all for it, believing that the deterrent is much more important than any advantage I get from CC. I would only OC in these situations where I'm not around crowds of people. I'm looking for other opinions. I know there are tons of badass women out there who could beat the crap out of any man who went for their weapon, and I'm no shrinking violet. But I am getting older and I need to be realistic.

So, the women who OC, does it ever cross your mind? And men, if your wife made the decision to OC, how would you feel about it? Thanks!!

 

[WalkingWolf]

Welcome to OCDO!:banana:

My 61 year old 130# 5 foot 3 inches wife OC's whenever she can. She currently carries a Witness Pavona in an OWB belt holster, with a NAA black widow in her pocket. She keeps a Mace pepper spray gun in the CC compartment of her purse. A good dose of potent pepper spray will slow down most people if they get too close before a grab can happen. The Mace gun has a range of 25 feet, and with it in her purse she can keep a hand on it when it is needed without drawing attention. You also could consider some classes on handgun retention to build confidence, but keep in mind that gun grabs of private citizens OCing is rare, almost unicorn rare.

 

[color of law]

Welcome,

Over a long period of time I have come to the conclusion that a retention holster is a must if open carrying. Because we cannot have 100% situational awareness a retention holster helps compensate. When standing in line the retention holster helps lessen the anxiety of someone grabbing your gun.

Keep us up to date on your progress. And don't let anybody push you to fast. It will take time to get use to open carrying. Good luck.

 

[BB62]

I second WW's welcome!! :monkey

I wouldn't want my wife to OC (or CC) at the moment, not because there aren't a number of retention holsters of various levels on the market - but rather because she possesses neither the willingness to use deadly force if necessary, but also because the concept of situational awareness is mostly foreign to her. I could go on, but all of it worries me greatly.

Circumstances being as they are, I think it best that she not carry a gun.

On the other hand, I think you have a number of elements working for you, since you're already CCing and presumably have the necessary knowledge, mindset, and situational awareness.

Might I suggest dipping your toes in the water by going out and about for a time while using an IWB holster, or an OWB holster with an *unloaded* gun, while also carrying a concealed, loaded gun?

You may want to check www.smartcarry.com for your concealed gun should you choose to go the route I've just described.

Again, welcome. It's great to have you here, and I/we look forward to hearing more of your thoughts and your possible journey into OCing.

 

[TotinMama]

She currently carries a Witness Pavona in an OWB belt holster, with a NAA black widow in her pocket. She keeps a Mace pepper spray gun in the CC compartment of her purse.

I assume you avoid making her angry!

Thank you for the suggestions and the welcome.

I wish I could find some decent retention training. So many asshats calling themselves instructors that, without a recommendation, I refuse to just try someone out.

I was lucky enough many years ago in college to take a personal defense class with a fantastic instructor who focused on situational awareness, the psychology of defense (are you prepared to do things like stab someone in the eyeball with a key?), along with physical defense. I always carried those lessons with me and long ago did the necessary soul searching to affirm i have no issue using deadly force to defend myself. I wore a training "gun" around around my house for months prior to stepping out with my CC the first time, with my husband launching surprise attempts to disarm me the entire time. I'm all about being mentally prepared.

I think a great first step is carrying an unloaded OC (and my CC EDC) in uncrowded venues for a while. I'm going to break out my level II today and start. Thank you again for the opinions!

 

[WalkingWolf]

Mace Pepper Gun

I am really impressed with these, though my wife carries hers in her purse, and OC's a firearm, you could reverse the carry. The safety on them is not real noticeable, a grabber would be frustrated for at least a few seconds giving time to pull CC weapon. This is a image I pulled off the net of a OC pepper gun, they are light, and not a large gun my wife's is pink, but they have black, silver, and camo.

She also has a smaller Saber pepper spray on her purse that she can carry in her hands, it is only a 12 foot range though. Both were purchased off of Amazon.

 

[TotinMama]

LOL, I have a holster exactly like that I use when riding my bike. Light, inexpensive, and I don't care if I sweat all over it.

Great minds...

I also think I will look into a good mace unit. You are right, it will slow someone down.

 

[WalkingWolf]

I assume you avoid making her angry!

Thank you for the suggestions and the welcome.

I wish I could find some decent retention training. So many asshats calling themselves instructors that, without a recommendation, I refuse to just try someone out.

I was lucky enough many years ago in college to take a personal defense class with a fantastic instructor who focused on situational awareness, the psychology of defense (are you prepared to do things like stab someone in the eyeball with a key?), along with physical defense. I always carried those lessons with me and long ago did the necessary soul searching to affirm i have no issue using deadly force to defend myself. I wore a training "gun" around around my house for months prior to stepping out with my CC the first time, with my husband launching surprise attempts to disarm me the entire time. I'm all about being mentally prepared.

I think a great first step is carrying an unloaded OC (and my CC EDC) in uncrowded venues for a while. I'm going to break out my level II today and start. Thank you again for the opinions!

Yea finding good instructors is a problem. I got my training from state police instructors, there was a SOS investigator that had the duty of teaching weapons retention. You might check with your highway patrol barracks, and see if their instructor would give you a few pointers to practice. It is hard to describe procedures on the internet.

A trooper we knew in the Florida Keys was beaten to an inch of her life, but she still managed to keep her gun in her holster. What we were trained was to not try to draw the gun in an attempt, but use all effort to push it down in the holster. There are moves that can be used while keeping the gun holstered, a simple one is to just spin/turn usually throwing the the grabber but it only works if they are grabbing from behind. Frontal grab is different as they will be probably pushing you as they grab. The trooper was on the ground trying to keep the gun under her in the holster, the two of them(male, and female) kicked, and beat her on the ground. Keep in mind that most gun grabs, and they are rare, are on police officers. They intentionally are in close contact with criminals, and some criminals will do anything to avoid jail. This happened in 1992, and the video store they robbed was managed by my wife, her employee was kidnapped. She escaped and ran down the highway while the pair assaulted the trooper.

MIAMI -- A rookie Florida Highway Patrol trooper, who was severely beaten with her flashlight after foiling a kidnapping, remained in stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital on Friday.

Carmen Cabrera, 26, a trooper since December, was beaten and left on the side of the road late Monday after stopping a car for speeding near West Summerland Key, said Officer Sandra Guidry, a Florida Highway Patrol spokeswoman. Joseph Minieli, 19, and Kimberly Ann Haslam, 23, both of Boca Raton, were arrested and are being held on $1 million bail in the Key West Jail, Guidry said. The pair are accused of assaulting Cabrera after robbing the Keys Video Store in Big Pine Key of $172 and kidnapping clerk Sue Meyers.

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

Welcome to bad your not closer I could give you some very good training.

A quick search well turn up many instructors and companies offing training.

Not one of them is perfect one has to research and go with the one you think well meet your needs.

Ask a lot of questions and tell them of your needs and wants and what you expect out of the training.

A good trainer well be up front with you if they can meet them.

So chose wisely.

 

[TotinMama]

Welcome to bad your not closer I could give you some very good training.

A quick search well turn up many instructors and companies offing training.

Not one of them is perfect one has to research and go with the one you think well meet your needs.

Ask a lot of questions and tell them of your needs and wants and what you expect out of the training.

A good trainer well be up front with you if they can meet them.

So chose wisely.

Great advice, thanks!

 

[Maverick9]

Welcome!

Glad to hear you are carrying and are considering other, perhaps expanded options.

I do not think that OC serves as a deterrent. In the cases where the persons/people even SEE you have a firearm, they are not the kind that are going to be aggressive, or shall we say a majority - that's a safe assumption.

In the cases people have witnessed or told stories about, they are just 'stories' so grain of salt. I think it is SO rare that to do it because you think it really WILL deter someone from (what? Approaching? Committing a crime within your view? Committing a crime against you?) something that it doesn't rise to the level of 'good reason'.

If it makes you THINK it's of a comfort, sure, that is a good reason. You're not being deluded, but is it a reality for you in your situation? Doubtful. Cases of people trying to grab-a-gun are super, super rare.

I do not think that it will be a help to ride your motorcycle with a handgun on your hip (or even a bicycle). What if you fall on it? You are not going to be shooting someone WHILE you are riding. If you MUST do that, use a chest rig, with four-way buckles (like a reverse baby-carrier). It's safer from injury of falling on your side.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--

I do not think that OC serves as a deterrent.

There are way too many stories with witnesses to be simply embellishment or outright fiction.

Philip Van Cleave, president of VCDL, had such an experience with another member as a witness.

So Did Dennis O'Connor, director of VCDL, have an incident in a bank witnessed by the branch employees.

Not only do I firmly believe OC serves as a potential deterrent, it also educates observers.

Unfortunately someone CCing looks like a typical unarmed victim looking for a place to happen.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Welcome!

Glad to hear you are carrying and are considering other, perhaps expanded options.

I do not think that OC serves as a deterrent. In the cases where the persons/people even SEE you have a firearm, they are not the kind that are going to be aggressive, or shall we say a majority - that's a safe assumption.

In the cases people have witnessed or told stories about, they are just 'stories' so grain of salt. I think it is SO rare that to do it because you think it really WILL deter someone from (what? Approaching? Committing a crime within your view? Committing a crime against you?) something that it doesn't rise to the level of 'good reason'.

If it makes you THINK it's of a comfort, sure, that is a good reason. You're not being deluded, but is it a reality for you in your situation? Doubtful. Cases of people trying to grab-a-gun are super, super rare.

I do not think that it will be a help to ride your motorcycle with a handgun on your hip (or even a bicycle). What if you fall on it? You are not going to be shooting someone WHILE you are riding. If you MUST do that, use a chest rig, with four-way buckles (like a reverse baby-carrier). It's safer from injury of falling on your side.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

I OC while riding a bicycle, and yes it is difficult to draw while riding, but once stopped there is no digging for for a gun under clothing. I found this out when attacked by a dog while riding. I did go down, but was able to draw immediatly upon hitting the ground. Didn't have to shoot as a man driving down the road tried to hit the dog with his truck before the dog could resume the attack. Gun got no damage, and holster minimal scratches. To be honest I carry guns that can be replaced most of the time, my safety is more important than boo boos on the firearm. At that incident I was carrying my Star Super that I paid $130 for. I do not carry my nicer firearms while riding.

It is hard to prove the deterrent value while carrying because we do not know what another person is planning, when, or if they will attack. Most of us are not mind readers, but I do know I would never attack an armed person, just common sense. Several years ago while walking I did have a pimped car slow down towards me while walking, as soon as they got close for some reason they sharply accelerated. There are a lot of stories like mine out there, no way to know that there was bad intent, or if they changed their mind. What is clear is OCers are rarely attacked, while CCers are attacked. If they come out on top does not change they were targeted in the first place.

 

[TotinMama]

I really have come to believe it is a deterrent in some situations. I ride a bicycle (not a motorcycle) in a rural area and choose roads with the least traffic possible. I can go several miles without seeing a vehicle or a house. I have been carrying in a bag on a bike until I had an incident which separated me from my bike. That incident did not go south, but it was a situation which got me thinking"what if" that person meant to do me harm?

I think for bicycling and hiking solo, I'm more likely to run into BGs of opportunity who would much rather move on to a softer target. Will there be exceptions? Absolutely. But the majority of the POS that attack women choose those they don't perceive as a threat. YMMV, but the older I get, the more I believe the average criminal will move on. I'm probably horrible for saying this, but I couldn't give a rat's ass about protecting anyone but myself and my family. Likelihood I'll be attacked? Minimal. But I'm not willing to bet on that.

Might be slightly different in the case of, say, being at your local convenience store and a robbery begins. Those criminals most likely won't even see your firearm unless you're front and center as they'll be focused on grabbing the money and controlling all if the customers.

Great conversation and appreciate thoughts from both sides.

 

[MamaLiberty]

So, the women who OC, does it ever cross your mind?

Welcome! I am a 71 year old widow, partially disabled. I've been carrying mostly OC for the last ten years. I just retired as a certified NRA instructor for firearms and self defense. I live in an isolated, rural area of Wyoming and I do not go into cities or crowds of any kind... but that's not from fear of anyone trying to grab my gun. I simply don't like crowds or cities. Retention tactics would be much more important in those crowded places, though the "grab" is mostly confined to police. I don't worry about it at all.

OC can very often result in deterrence of those who might otherwise see you as an easy, helpless victim. I've written about several times when the visible gun WAS a deterrent - though there is no way to guarantee what these people actually intended. They didn't attack me, which is the only thing I care about.
Unreported - The Crime That Didn't Happen https://thepriceofliberty.org/2014/01/21/unreported-the-crime-that-didnt-happen/

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

Proving why something did not happen can be hard some times.

I drove into town and did not get in an accident why?

Or such

 

[MamaLiberty]

Proving why something did not happen can be hard some times.

Why would anyone need to "prove it?" I OC for my own benefit and convenience. If potential attackers are discouraged, big win/win. If they think they can overwhelm me before I draw and shoot... their problem.

 

[WalkingWolf]

If people eating X food live ten years longer than people eating Y food, is there any need to prove that X is better than Y? People who OC are rarely victims of crime, very rare, unicorn rare. OTH many business that welcome OC are not normally victims of crime. I know of only one case in Virginia, and it did not work out so well for the armed robber, who probably did not even know that there was an OCer in the market. There were no incidence of violent crime at any place where OCT were carrying. There is a posted BBQ restaurant in Raleigh that is posted, it has been robbed numerous times. But there are studies of inmates in prison who come out and say that they avoid armed citizens, but that is hard to tell who is CCing, and who is not. Why sometimes CCers are targeted, even if they come out on top they are still a target. For myself I am not societies garbage man, it is LE's job to take out the trash not mine. I just want to be left alone.

 

[MamaLiberty]

it is LE's job to take out the trash not mine. I just want to be left alone.

I just want to be left alone too. That includes any cops. It is not their job to protect me. That is my responsibility.

 

[color of law]

Welcome! I am a 71 year [strike]old[/strike] young widow, partially disabled. I've been carrying mostly OC for the last ten years. I just retired as a certified NRA instructor for firearms and self defense. I live in an isolated, rural area of Wyoming and I do not go into cities or crowds of any kind... but that's not from fear of anyone trying to grab my gun. I simply don't like crowds or cities. Retention tactics would be much more important in those crowded places, though the "grab" is mostly confined to police. I don't worry about it at all.

OC can very often result in deterrence of those who might otherwise see you as an easy, helpless victim. I've written about several times when the visible gun WAS a deterrent - though there is no way to guarantee what these people actually intended. They didn't attack me, which is the only thing I care about.
Unreported - The Crime That Didn't Happen https://thepriceofliberty.org/2014/01/21/unreported-the-crime-that-didnt-happen/

In that I'm 67 and you are not that far ahead of me I wish to think I am young comparing it to a friend of mine who is 94, he is old........

The only time I rely on my "OLD" age is when a cop gets smart with me. When they do I ask them if their mother taught them to be disrespectful of hes/her elders.....