Wells Fargo / Wachovia accused me of breaking the law

[papa bear]

At the risk of bashing. i have been in a downward spiral with dealing with wachovia/wells fargo for a few years now. i must say they well define functional intelligence. i have dealt with government agencies that had more sense

 

[SouthernBoy]

Look at the letterhead again. It also states A Wells Fargo Company.

Also understand that the letter to Wells Fargo CEO was obviously forwarded to the Va. Senior VP for response - the duty was delegated. Her answer is clear.

The OP is awaiting further response from her which does NOT seem to be forthcoming.

I do agree that some serious follow through on this issue of following state laws may well be of benefit. Suggest going over her head to the top again.

Yes, I saw that. My point was that this employee has undoubtedly been with Wachovia for some time. She may never have run into this problem before and is only acting upon what she believes to be current and correct corporate policy; which it may or may not be at this point in time. So if Wells Fargo has changed its policy, then that is an entirely different matter and one which I have no info about... but would certainly like to know.

 

[SouthernBoy]

As previously stated, many don't think that means what he thinks that means.

IANAL, so what I think doesn't mean anything either. But I like to live in the world of common sense, and I will be the first to admit that what happens with either LEOs or Courts quite often does not qualify.

In my "common sense" view of the world, a gunbuster sign is simply a sign that tells you something. It is saying we don't want you to carry a gun here. That does not make it illegal to carry a gun there, it means they don't want you to. Fine, it's their property, they get to set policy, but they don't get to write the law. If they ask you to leave and you don't, then you are breaking a law... a very different law, etc...

If I walk barefoot into a restaurant with a sign that says "Shoes and shirt required", does that mean I'm breaking the law? Or that they are going to ask me to leave? Same thing as before, if I refuse to leave, then I'm trespassing. If I take my kid to a community pool that has a sign on the fence that says "no running" and my kid forgets and runs 10 feet, does that make him a criminal? Of course not. It means they remind him to not run, and if he continues to run, they will ask us to leave.

I think some gun owners are waaay too willing to give up the legal high ground to people who are not entitled to it.

Of course, my point is that no other sign which attempts to modify behavior comes with the implied hammer of an automatic trespassing crime... unless there is some specific reason to say that it does*. Why should this be any different?

TFred

* Such as "No loitering. Trespassers will be prosecuted..."

Spot on. Were I to wander into a business which had a "no guns" sign posted which I did not see and was asked to leave while armed, I would do so for several reasons, one of which being that the proprietor might be of a mind to call the police and have me charged with trespassing.

But suppose the owner was a friend or neighbor, had such a sign, and I walked into his business openly armed. If he tells me, "That's Ok, I know you.. you're fine. What'cha need today?", no law has been broken. It is HIS decision to take as to whether or not I am trespassing; not a governmental agency and if he says I can remain on his property/premise while armed, then no harm is done and no laws are broken.

 

[SouthernBoy]

I truly adore the signs often seen in bank parking lots: No Trespassing After Hours.

Can I therefore presume it is OK to trespass during normal business hours? :lol:

Good point. Kinda like the sign on the Wachovia bank door that has a revolver silhouette with a red diagonal line drawn through it. That only means revolvers, not semi-automatic pistols as the bank employee told me with a smile and nod.

 

[SouthernBoy]

This is why it's important to understand, and useful to discuss, the differences in terminology from state to state. I know this is the VA forum, but let me point out another state's rules just so people remember that the seriousness varies from one state to the next.

Texas, for instance, defines it this way:


Also crucially important in Texas:


So, when the original Texas CHL law took effect in 1996, overlooking or ignoring a simple "gunbusters" sign could get you a full year in jail (Class A is the highest level of non-felony in Texas). Notice was posted that entry was forbidden (with a firearm), and you trespassed while carrying a deadly weapon, hope you didn't have plans for a while.

That's why in the next session they created Penal Code 30.06, which says PC 30.05 doesn't apply to someone with a valid CHL if the reason for exclusion was that the person is carrying a concealed handgun, unless they received proper notice under 30.06 -- which requires being verbally told guns aren't allowed, or a sign with mandatory language in 1" block letters in contrasting colors is posted in a way that is "conspicuous to the publice". (They can also hand you a card or other written document containing the same mandatory language.)

It's now almost impossible for a licensee to accidentally trespass while armed. I say "almost impossible", because I've done it myself: I went into a credit union, was waiting to talk to a loan officer, glanced back at the entrance and did a double-take: there was a proper 30.06 notice, big as life.

Then I saw why I hadn't seen it: it was on the door. The automatic sliding door, which was already open as I approached, which meant the notice was behind a large advertising display until the door closed.

Count your blessings if VA doesn't have such onerous trespass laws.

See, that seems to me to be completely contradictory to me. The law taking the right and authority away from the owner and thereby removing him entirely from the decision of whether or not to charge and prosecute. What if the owner allows the armed individual to enter while armed? Is he now breaking a law? And if the police happen upon the premise and see an armed person in a business that has a posted sign, do they just arbitrarily arrest the person while the owner insists his presence while armed is fine?

 

[MSC 45ACP]

30.06 Signs

I remember the 30.06 signs quite well. I NEVER missed one as the above poster did. They were ALWAYS HUGE. I never saw one much smaller than about 2' x 3'... Maybe as small as 18" wide by 24" high, but to get all the wording on it that Texas required, it had to be a BIG sign.

If Virginia enacted a "30.06" law similar to the one in Texas, there would be absolutely NO "grey area" about where you could and could not carry. As also posted, they were pretty darn serious about violating it, too.

Keep in mind you can still shoot someone in your YARD (at night) under their "Criminal Mischief at Night" law. I'm pretty sure you can also shoot someone for stealing your horse or cattle, too. I miss some things about living in Texas, but not the weather and the fact you still can't OC. (Have they passed that yet?)

 

[SouthernBoy]

Keep in mind you can still shoot someone in your YARD (at night) under their "Criminal Mischief at Night" law.

You can do this in Virginia, too. Providing there is apprehension of serious bodily harm to yourself or someone else. Makes no difference where you are.

 

[Grapeshot]

Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP
Keep in mind you can still shoot someone in your YARD (at night) under their "Criminal Mischief at Night" law.

You can do this in Virginia, too. Providing there is apprehension of serious bodily harm to yourself or someone else. Makes no difference where you are.

True, but your reason is an affirmative defense for having violated the law rather than a legal action.

 

[KBCraig]

See, that seems to me to be completely contradictory to me. The law taking the right and authority away from the owner and thereby removing him entirely from the decision of whether or not to charge and prosecute. What if the owner allows the armed individual to enter while armed? Is he now breaking a law? And if the police happen upon the premise and see an armed person in a business that has a posted sign, do they just arbitrarily arrest the person while the owner insists his presence while armed is fine?

The property owner can always give specific permission to someone, just as they can tell someone it's okay to cross their fence. But, they've already made the declaration that carrying a firearm there without permission is illegal the moment they posted a 30.06 notice.

If the property owner doesn't want to pursue a particular prosecution, I'm sure the charge would be dropped by 99% of Texas DAs.

There have been so few 30.06 prosecutions that there's no pattern to report. Since Texas is CC-only (for now), the only way to get caught violating 30.06 is to be detected, and to either be known to the property owner, or to stick around and wait for the police.

 

[TFred]

I'm sure Texas has their reasons and their sets of folks who like and dislike their laws...

But I'm fairly satisfied with the way it is here in Virginia. I don't like the idea of a citizen having the ability to decide whether or not my carrying a gun is a crime, even if it is on their property. I'm more than happy to leave if they want me to, but they have no business making it a criminal matter. We really don't need to give anti's that much power.

JMHO.

TFred

 

[wylde007]

You can do this in Virginia, too. Providing there is apprehension of serious bodily harm to yourself or someone else. Makes no difference where you are.

Better hope the entry wound isn't in the middle of the perps' back.

Hard to explain that one away.

 

[Grapeshot]

Better hope the entry wound isn't in the middle of the perps' back.

Hard to explain that one away.

While rear entry wounds are best avoided, there are circumstances were it is entirely defensible. Couldn't find examples on a quick search, but Massad Ayoob has successfully contributed to several cases where such was a major point made by the prosecutor. As described the BG was in the act of turning away while the GG was simultaneously preparing to fire. Time enough to turn, but not time enough to see and stop the response.

I remember the High's Ice Cream shooting several years ago here in Richmond where the BG was fleeing and an employee shot and killed him. Also an incident in the fan area where a domestic aggressor dropped his knife and ran - a neighbor unloaded his 9mm ending the flight permanently. The 1st case the prosecutor declined to pursue and in the latter the Grand Jury refused to indict.

Still I agree it is better to not complicate things.

 

[wylde007]

?

"It looked like he was reaching for a weapon."

 

[skidmark]

http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews...ience-saved-2-gun-cops-from-trial-for-murder/

Two cops accused of executing suspect via bullet to back of the head. Force Science Institute proves that despite "forensic evidence" the cops did not shoot him after he turned/was down.

Ayoob may have anecdotes, but FSI has data.

stay safe.

 

[thaJack]

Not sure where you guys are, but by now most of the Wachovias are now Wells Fargo. Here, the new signs have nothing about firearms. I have open carried into the Wells Fargo branch here one time and no problem.

 

[amtilton17]

What is the law concerning carry in a Credit Union?

 

[SouthernBoy]

Not sure where you guys are, but by now most of the Wachovias are now Wells Fargo. Here, the new signs have nothing about firearms. I have open carried into the Wells Fargo branch here one time and no problem.

The (previous) Wachovia closest to me was formerly changed to Wells Fargo last August and the gun buster sign which had been on the door was removed at the same time the new signs went up. Of course, as I wrote earlier in this thread, that gun buster sign was for revolvers... not semi-auto's (see my prior posts on this one).

 

[Grapeshot]

What is the law concerning carry in a Credit Union?

There is no law on credit unions in VA regarding guns and the general public. Credit unions are privately owned and may set their own rules.

Just to preempt someone telling you they are federal property - they are not. Being federally insured, just refers to the protection of a depositor's funds.

 

[celticredneck]

My largest account right now is with the Bank of McKinney. They have no problem with either open or concealed carry. I spoke with manager before opening my account and was told that by her before I opened the account. Of course she did say "We would prefer that you didn't open carry, but we know it is legal and you will not have a problem if you do."

 

[thaJack]

It's now almost impossible for a licensee to accidentally trespass while armed. I say "almost impossible", because I've done it myself: I went into a credit union, was waiting to talk to a loan officer, glanced back at the entrance and did a double-take: there was a proper 30.06 notice, big as life.

Then I saw why I hadn't seen it: it was on the door. The automatic sliding door, which was already open as I approached, which meant the notice was behind a large advertising display until the door closed.

I'd argue that it was not easily visible when the door was opened. If you're walking in behind someone else, the sign is technically not visible from outside the entrance.

Lewis-Gale Clinic in Salem, Virginia used to have a little sign posted the same way... on the sliding door, and it was hidden when the door was opened.