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Sometimes you win quietly

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
On or about March 2, 2012, Hayes and others were denied access to PFD property commonly known as the Spokane Convention Center. Hayes was attempting to attend a ‘Ron Paul Rally’ in one of the areas commonly known as the ‘bays’, where the rally was in progress.

Hayes was stopped by Crowd Management Services (CMS), who noticed that he was carrying a firearm. CMS deferred to a sign posted on the wall, which referenced Spokane Municipal Code (SMC) 10.10.050.

SMC 10.10.050 states in relevant part:

A. No person shall bring into any City public assembly facility any cans, bottles, alcoholic beverages, controlled substances, guns, knives or other such devices which are weapons or apparently capable of use as weapons. SMC 10.10.050 (A)​

Hayes explained to CMS that the code was in error, due to the lack of an exception contained in state law, specifically RCW 9.41.300, which states that such restrictions do not apply to those who have a Concealed Pistol License. Hayes was in possession of a CPL at that time. Security was called, and Mark Williams, head of security, threatened to call police, alleging trespass, due to the cited ordinance. Hayes and others left the premises.

At the time of the incident, the code was in conflict with RCW 9.41.290, because the code lacked the exemption for CPL holders noted above. RCW 9.41.290, commonly known as the state's preemption statute, explicitly prohibits:

Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality. RCW 9.41.290 (emphasis added)​

RCW 9.41.290, copied here in relevant part, also refers to RCW 9.41.300:

Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. RCW 9.41.290​

Since RCW 9.41.290 refers to RCW 9.41.300, RCW 9.41.300 is copied here in relevant part:

Weapons prohibited in certain places—Local laws and ordinances—Exceptions—Penalty.
(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:
(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060;​

Since SMC 10.10.050 did not contain the exception embodied in RCW 9.41.300 (2)(b)(i), SMC 10.10.050 was “more restrictive than” the preemption statute allows. To remedy this conflict, the Spokane City Council passed Ordinance #: C35001 unanimously in 2013, adding the following language:

D. The restriction set forth above in subsection (A) shall not apply to:
1. Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or

2. Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.​

This language brought the Spokane Municipal Code into compliance with RCW 9.41.300.

The PFD Board of Directors was approached after the Spokane City Council passed ordinance C35001, and the PFD Board of Directors was asked to reconsider their policy prohibiting all firearms on PFD premise.
The PFD refused.

Below is the policy in force at the time, copied here in relevant part:

Weapons and Concealed Handguns
In accordance with provisions of Municipal Code 10.10.050, it is the policy of the Spokane Convention Center that handguns and other weapons are strictly prohibited in Spokane Convention Center. Individuals who fail to comply with this prohibition or otherwise violate penal laws with respect to carrying a handgun or other weapon are subject to immediate arrest and prosecution. This prohibition applies to all persons including concealed handgun Licensees, with the exception of licensed law enforcement officers. Spokane Public Facilities District Policy, Weapons and Concealed Handguns. (emphasis added)​

Subsequent to this action, the PFD modified the website, discarding the Policy document in favor of a document called the 'Planner's Guide', which contains a section titled 'Rules and Regulations'.
The Rules and Regulations section contains the following sub-section, titled 'Weapons and Concealed Handguns', copied here in its entirety:

The Spokane Convention Center and INB Performing Arts Center are weapons free campus/venues in accordance with the Spokane Municipal Code 10.10.050. Staff also reserves the right to make a determination on what constitutes a weapon. Spokane Public Facilities District Planner's Guide, 'Rules and Regulations, Weapons and Concealed Handguns.
http://spokanecenter.com/core/files/spokanecenter/uploads/files/guides_planner.pdf

Since SMC now contains, in SMC 10.10.050 (D)(1), the exception specified in RCW 9.41.300 (2)(b)(i), the PFD is now following state law.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
...Subsequent to this action, the PFD modified the website, discarding the Policy document in favor of a document called the 'Planner's Guide', which contains a section titled 'Rules and Regulations'.
The Rules and Regulations section contains the following sub-section, titled 'Weapons and Concealed Handguns', copied here in its entirety:
The Spokane Convention Center and INB Performing Arts Center are weapons free campus/venues in accordance with the Spokane Municipal Code 10.10.050. Staff also reserves the right to make a determination on what constitutes a weapon. Spokane Public Facilities District Planner's Guide, 'Rules and Regulations, Weapons and Concealed Handguns.
http://spokanecenter.com/core/files/spokanecenter/uploads/files/guides_planner.pdf

Since SMC now contains, in SMC 10.10.050 (D)(1), the exception specified in RCW 9.41.300 (2)(b)(i), the PFD is now following state law.
So unless someone knows the Spokane Municipal Code, the convention center is indeed to all outward appearances weapons-free.

Their words "weapons free" don't jive with the allowances made by SMC 10.10.050 (D)(1) - so they're still playing games as far as I'm concerned.

I have no doubt that this game-playing is going to result in others being turned away, or in an extreme cases, cited.
 
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hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
cited?
Oh, I can only hope so.

That is exactly the "ammunition" that we need to file a suit.

hadji
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
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Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
cited?

Oh, I can only hope so.

That is exactly the "ammunition" that we need to file a suit.
Oh! Alrighty then! :cool:

That being the case, I wouldn't have labelled the actions which the Spokane Convention Center took as "a win", however.
 
Last edited:

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
The point being, if denied access, security does not have the RCW, the SMC, or their own policy to back them up.
 

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
Legalese to avoid the nitpickers.

The phrase "on or about" indicates that the exact date is not the important part.
Usually, what follows is the important part.

If you like, I can amend the post to say "In March of 2012..."

hadji
 
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BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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The point being, if denied access, security does not have the RCW, the SMC, or their own policy to back them up.
They have a policy, which in its outward appearance, disallows carry. That's all they need to: 1) persuade the ignorant not to carry, or 2) use an officer's ignorance to cite/charge an individual.

Either way, the person is going to be turned away/cited/arrested at least once.

If a citation gives one grounds for a lawsuit, great! THEN it will be a win.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Knowing the story in it's entirety, this is a great win.

Similar to the Pierce Co. building and the new method in which they check firearms. They now follow state law, you are welcome.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
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Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Knowing the story in it's entirety, this is a great win.

Similar to the Pierce Co. building and the new method in which they check firearms. They now follow state law, you are welcome.
I've been contacted by the Grammar Police, who would like to inform you of the following:

it's = it is
its = possessive form of "it"

;)
 
Last edited:

BobR

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
391
Location
West Plains, ,
So unless someone knows the Spokane Municipal Code, the convention center is indeed to all outward appearances weapons-free.

Their words "weapons free" don't jive with the allowances made by SMC 10.10.050 (D)(1) - so they're still playing games as far as I'm concerned.

I have no doubt that this game-playing is going to result in others being turned away, or in an extreme cases, cited.

You mean someone like the Spokane County Sheriff trying to go to a charity hockey game?

https://www.facebook.com/KHQPatrickErickson/videos/1218304284883296/

Sorry about the facebook link, I don't know how to download it to another service. :(

bob
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
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Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Knowing the story in it's entirety, this is a great win.

Similar to the Pierce Co. building and the new method in which they check firearms. They now follow state law, you are welcome.

You mean someone like the Spokane County Sheriff trying to go to a charity hockey game?

https://www.facebook.com/KHQPatrickErickson/videos/1218304284883296/

Sorry about the facebook link, I don't know how to download it to another service. :(

bob
From the Facebook post: "Sheriff Knezovich was going to a charity hockey game and says even though he was on duty, he wasn't allowed to be armed due to arena policy. @KHQLocalNews‬"

Gee, big surprise - they STILL don't follow the law! (thanks for the info, BobR)

Go get 'em gogodawgs!
 

BB62

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
You'd almost think that with the changes to their official policy to follow the law that the ignorance is both willful and calculated.:uhoh:
Blasphemy!

How dare you suggest that the following "win" :rolleyes: didn't take care of the matter:

The point being, if denied access, security does not have the RCW, the SMC, or their own policy to back them up.

:banghead:
 

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
Point of Order, gentlemen....

The law states:
RCW 9.41.300
Weapons prohibited in certain places—Local laws and ordinances—Exceptions—Penalty.
(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:
(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070

The arena's legal counsel states that, since arenas are not mentioned in the above, they are exempt from the exception.

This thread indicates that the convention center policy has changed.

hadji
 

BB62

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Joined
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Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
The law states:
RCW 9.41.300
Weapons prohibited in certain places—Local laws and ordinances—Exceptions—Penalty.
(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:
(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:
(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070

The arena's legal counsel states that, since arenas are not mentioned in the above, they are exempt from the exception.

This thread indicates that the convention center policy has changed.

hadji
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like a simple fix. :rolleyes:
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Are either "stadium" or "arena" defined in the Washington Code and are these definitions different that the one in the dictionary?

sta·di·um
noun
noun: stadium; plural noun: stadia; plural noun: stadiums

1.
a sports arena with tiers of seats for spectators.
synonyms: arena, field, ground; bowl, amphitheater, coliseum, ring, dome, manège;
track, course, racetrack, racecourse, raceway, speedway, velodrome, sportsplex;
pitch
"the stadium houses a soccer field and two athletic fields"
 

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
No.
There is no formal definition in the law.
However, the law at times lists them in the same paragraph, but separately:

RCW 70.108.020
Definitions.
For the purposes of this chapter the following words and phrases shall have the indicated meanings:
(3) "Outdoor music festival" or "music festival" or "festival" means an assembly of persons gathered primarily for outdoor, live or recorded musical entertainment, where the predicted attendance is two thousand persons or more and where the duration of the program is five hours or longer: PROVIDED, That this definition shall not be applied to any regularly established permanent place of worship, stadium, athletic field, arena, auditorium, coliseum, or other similar permanently established places of assembly for assemblies which do not exceed by more than two hundred fifty people the maximum seating capacity of the structure where the assembly is held...

Again, although these definitions do not pertain to RCW 9.41, note that both are listed separately above.

For the curious...

The law also states that we cannot carry at an Outdoor Music festival:
RCW 70.108.150
Firearms—Penalty.
It shall be unlawful for any person, except law enforcement officers, to carry, transport, or convey, or to have in his or her possession or under his or her control any firearm while on the site of an outdoor music festival.​


hadji
 
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