Perfect CCW law wish list.

[kurtmax_0]

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^^ You should be able to copy->paste the type if you highlight it. No need to retype. This board has some funky formatting, so if it doesn't work right you might need to 'clean' it through a plain type editor like notepad or something.

I'm gonna not be able to participate much in anything for the next few weeks. I'm starting university next week and I still don't even know my work schedule. Plus I'm working on my pistol permit problem and all kinds of other things

 

[Comp-tech]

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flounder22 wrote:

sccrref wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

vmathis12019 wrote:

Agreed. It's tough to know where to start in Alabama with the LE education. If we could get a group together with enough members, I think the best way to start would be to send letters to ALL the sheriffs in the state informing them of the legality of the OC, and asking what the consequences are for individuals in their county for licensees and non-licensees alike. If they reply in the negative, we go to the papers. This would be the best first step as far as I can see.

Sounds like a good start....I had thought about sending something to the Alabama Sheriffs Association with the request that it be forwarded to all members...
As for "my" county, the response to OC would be similar to what you experienced:banghead: ( Ok then, can someone draft a suitable letter with all the ammo needed and post it here so all of us can start sending them out to all the county sheriffs dept`s and should we also send letters to the police depts.? Let`s not let this dry up and die. We all need to come together somehow and make this happen. I have lots of stamps and a post office down the street. The letters do shound like the place to start. And if anyone in Alabama is tight with any board members here at OC.org, maybe they can give advice to us on first steps to get things underway. Let us all commit ourselfs to making this happen or to at least try. Like vmathes said if we get negative replys then we can go to the newspapers. Karl )

As for letters to each sheriff etc., that sounds like a plan that might actually get some attention....what say ye other Bama residents?
I suppose the first step is to build a membership then?

There is a member on the site who has generated training bulletins and had them distributed to local LE. I do not remember who it was. You may want to look in the Discussion Forum.Rules of Engagement>Law Library. There are 2 examples that might help you get a training info sheet started. 1 is for VA and the other is for PA.

sorry, I put my last reply in the wrong space here, please see above, i didn`t want to retype it .

No worries Karl......I post replies "inside" others posts at times as well. What I do when I post "inside" like that is to change the font color as I did with what you posted above.

 

[loudone]

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vmathis12019 wrote:

Agreed. It's tough to know where to start in Alabama with the LE education. If we could get a group together with enough members, I think the best way to start would be to send letters to ALL the sheriffs in the state informing them of the legality of the OC, and asking what the consequences are for individuals in their county for licensees and non-licensees alike. If they reply in the negative, we go to the papers. This would be the best first step as far as I can see.

I believe however we approach this we need to try to bring LE in as a partner, not an adversary. This may be a far fetched idea, but one way to approach the educating the law enforcement officer's may be to offer something of value, like say firearms training.

It would take a fairly large organization to support something like this, but I kind of have an idea that a group could sponsor a one or two day in service clinic and bring in a clinician like a Todd Jarrett or some other competitive shooter that's in that top level. Mixed in to that session would be some serious discussion on the subject of Alabama carry laws. In my opinion the best way to inform the average beat cop is toeducate the sergeants that train them. I believe we would get better results offering a cooperative approach than delivering an ultimatumbasically sayingagree with us or we'll go to the papers. I'm not saying back down on the RKBA position, just don't start off with an agressive, condescending know it all attitude.

Also, final thing and I'll shut up for a while. As RKBA proponents we study our firearms laws in great detail. For a LEO, 13a-11 is onlya partof the many laws that they are responsible for knowing. I know in my daily job therewill always be areasI could improve my knowledge. This is part of being human. As long as our civil rights are respected we should be as patient as possible while dealing with any LEO who may not have a complete understanding of all the firearm laws.

 

[Grapeshot]

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You'al sure do talk alot about what you're gonna do.

First you form a state organization dedicated to the 2nd Amend/self defense - then you decide how you are going to proceed. I might suggest that the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) would be more than happy to help you or offer suggestions.
All this talk and no action is just going to get you further down the slippery slope.

You apparently have laws on the books allowing OC or at least the absence of laws making it illegal and still your citizens get their face shoved in the gravel, cuffed and arrested. You want improvement on CC too. When are you going to get mad enough to do something about it?

Invite the enemy into your camp i.e. look for the support of friendly LEO's, Sheriffs and the like? I don't think so. You get the organization going and they will be obvious - they will find you. Find a bad LE department and sue them - that will get the attention of the rest.

In case anyone thinks that I am criticizing you for discussing this - I am not. But come on guys and girls, you have some problems - address them an effective way.


Yata hey

 

[Comp-tech]

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loudone wrote:

vmathis12019 wrote:

Agreed. It's tough to know where to start in Alabama with the LE education. If we could get a group together with enough members, I think the best way to start would be to send letters to ALL the sheriffs in the state informing them of the legality of the OC, and asking what the consequences are for individuals in their county for licensees and non-licensees alike. If they reply in the negative, we go to the papers. This would be the best first step as far as I can see.

I believe however we approach this we need to try to bring LE in as a partner, not an adversary. This may be a far fetched idea, but one way to approach the educating the law enforcement officer's may be to offer something of value, like say firearms training.
May I ask, why would anyone want to "bribe" LEOs to obey the laws that they took an oath to uphold?
IMO, this is a matter of training, or a lack thereof, that we are dealing with....I see nothing else that it could be when LE goes contrary to what the courts and legislature have decided.

It would take a fairly large organization to support something like this, but I kind of have an idea that a group could sponsor a one or two day in service clinic and bring in a clinician like a Todd Jarrett or some other competitive shooter that's in that top level. Mixed in to that session would be some serious discussion on the subject of Alabama carry laws. In my opinion the best way to inform the average beat cop is toeducate the sergeants that train them. I believe we would get better results offering a cooperative approach than delivering an ultimatumbasically sayingagree with us or we'll go to the papers. I'm not saying back down on the RKBA position, just don't start off with an agressive, condescending know it all attitude.
And how do LEOs act/react when they think they are right and you are wrong? Do you think that an LEO will value a mere citizens opinion over "academy training"?
If I put out money for a "clinician", I will be getting the training...you do realize that such training cost $100+ per person, per day right?


Also, final thing and I'll shut up for a while. As RKBA proponents we study our firearms laws in great detail. For a LEO, 13a-11 is onlya partof the many laws that they are responsible for knowing. I know in my daily job therewill always be areasI could improve my knowledge. This is part of being human. As long as our civil rights are respected we should be as patient as possible while dealing with any LEO who may not have a complete understanding of all the firearm laws.
This is the issue, our rights are not being respected and ignorance is no excuse. If I carry a pistol, I am expected to know the laws regarding that activity or suffer the consequences of my ignorance....you say that it should be different for an LEO?
Again, IMHO, the issue isn't that they have an "incomplete" understanding....they have an understanding that is contrary to the law as the courts and legislature have put forth.

 

[Grapeshot]

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The Second Amendment has no phrase referring to competency.

Am I more "qualified" because I have had more training than you have?
You set the bar when you suggest getting/requiring special training in order to have recognized that which is already permitted by law. Perhaps you would like the standard raised each year.

Come on - you have rights and privileges and YOU are allowing them to be trampled! LEOs and departments cannot be allowed to disregard your state's laws but they will until somebody makes them accountable.

Yata hey

 

[Comp-tech]

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Grapeshot wrote:

The Second Amendment has no phrase referring to competency.

Am I more "qualified" because I have had more training than you have?
You set the bar when you suggest getting/requiring special training in order to have recognized that which is already permitted by law. Perhaps you would like the standard raised each year.

Come on - you have rights and privileges and YOU are allowing them to be trampled! LEOs and departments cannot be allowed to disregard your state's laws but they will until somebody makes them accountable.

Yata hey

Our State Constitution doesn't either............


SECTION 26 Right to bear arms.

That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

Seems clear enough.....


SECTION 35 Objective of government.

That the sole object and only legitimate end of government is to protect the citizen in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, and when the government assumes other functions it is usurpation and oppression.

Yet you can still be "put on the ground" (temporary loss of liberty) and your pistol (property) taken......even though you are peacably/lawfully minding your own business.


SECTION 36 Construction of Declaration of Rights.

That this enumeration of certain rights shall not impair or deny others retained by the people; and, to guard against any encroachments on the rights herein retained, we declare that everything in this Declaration of Rights is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate.


SECTION 89 Municipalities not to pass laws in conflict with general laws of state.

The legislature shall not have power to authorize any municipal corporation to pass any laws inconsistent with the general laws of this state.

Was preemption in the Constitution before it was State Law?....hmmm

 

[Grapeshot]

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So what is the problem?

I'm sure that there has to be one attorney licensed to practice law in the state of Alabama that is pro Second Amendment and willing to take on some of these potential cases for a per centage - no up front cash.

Find a good enough case and go for it.

Yata hey

 

[loudone]

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Comp-tech wrote:

loudone wrote:

vmathis12019 wrote:

Agreed. It's tough to know where to start in Alabama with the LE education. If we could get a group together with enough members, I think the best way to start would be to send letters to ALL the sheriffs in the state informing them of the legality of the OC, and asking what the consequences are for individuals in their county for licensees and non-licensees alike. If they reply in the negative, we go to the papers. This would be the best first step as far as I can see.

I believe however we approach this we need to try to bring LE in as a partner, not an adversary. This may be a far fetched idea, but one way to approach the educating the law enforcement officer's may be to offer something of value, like say firearms training.
May I ask, why would anyone want to "bribe" LEOs to obey the laws that they took an oath to uphold?
IMO, this is a matter of training, or a lack thereof, that we are dealing with....I see nothing else that it could be when LE goes contrary to what the courts and legislature have decided.

First off it is just an idea. Second I would hardly call it a bribe. To me it would be an oppurtunity to develop commradery with a group of individuals who are willing to risk their lives on a daily basis. Also it is a bit easier to discuss issues with people once they get to know you or your organization.

It would take a fairly large organization to support something like this, but I kind of have an idea that a group could sponsor a one or two day in service clinic and bring in a clinician like a Todd Jarrett or some other competitive shooter that's in that top level. Mixed in to that session would be some serious discussion on the subject of Alabama carry laws. In my opinion the best way to inform the average beat cop is toeducate the sergeants that train them. I believe we would get better results offering a cooperative approach than delivering an ultimatumbasically sayingagree with us or we'll go to the papers. I'm not saying back down on the RKBA position, just don't start off with an agressive, condescending know it all attitude.
And how do LEOs act/react when they think they are right and you are wrong?

Just because a few misinformed/misguided LEO's act a certain way does not justify that we as community start threatening to "go to the newpapers" because they are ignorant of certain laws or misguided in their application. That said, if a department were to violate someone's civil right to self defense by falsely arresting them I'd be all for sueing them blind.

Do you think that an LEO will value a mere citizens opinion over "academy training"?

Based onconverations I've had with police officers I'll agree that "academy trainng" is woefully in adequate. I had a conversation with a fromer officer a couple of days ago. I asked her what her reaction would be if she saw someoneOCing in a fast food restraunt. She assued it was illegal. I told her that Alabama has no statute that specificlly bans OC. She then got a little defensive and begin to explain that the majoriy of training was OJT in the field with a supervisor such as a sergeant. The wheels in my head began to turn. You see the problem with trying to distribute packets of information to Departments is you would almost certainly be "censored" by a higher ranking LEO like a Sheriff or Chief of Police who is motivated by the political necessity of Re-election or Appointment to Office. I believe you need to devise a way to reach the "boots on the ground" so to speak. I believe offering access to training beyond their academy training is a good way to do just that. Also if you want to affect real lasting change you have to realize that the Patrolmen and sergeants of today are the Police chiefs, captains, and sheriffs of tomorrow. We have to find a way to get through to them.

If I put out money for a "clinician", I will be getting the training...you do realize that such training cost $100+ per person, per day right?

I'll be the first one to admit I don't know the exact cost of putting something together like this. And part of the reason I say it would take a large organization to pull it off is to minimize the cost to the individual member. I'm not saying five or six people should try to this off. I'm thinking more in the terms of thousands of members organizing.

Also, final thing and I'll shut up for a while. As RKBA proponents we study our firearms laws in great detail. For a LEO, 13a-11 is onlya partof the many laws that they are responsible for knowing. I know in my daily job therewill always be areasI could improve my knowledge. This is part of being human. As long as our civil rights are respected we should be as patient as possible while dealing with any LEO who may not have a complete understanding of all the firearm laws.
This is the issue, our rights are not being respected and ignorance is no excuse. If I carry a pistol, I am expected to know the laws regarding that activity or suffer the consequences of my ignorance....you say that it should be different for an LEO?

There again if a LEO falsely arrest someone or uses excessive force because somone is OC'ing or lawfully CCing I will be the first one to suggest sueing their department. However when a LEO does question someone about a firearm on their person that LEO doesn't know a thing about the person with the gun. That rookie cop who may be the one to confront you is probably more afraid of you then you are of them. You got to respect that they are just doing their job. I believe that as community we should make any contact with LE as civil as possible so that LEO's will see that someone carrying a gundoes notautomatically = threat or loose cannon.

Again, IMHO, the issue isn't that they have an "incomplete" understanding....they have an understanding that is contrary to the law as the courts and legislature have put forth.

Again, IMHO, if you want to change the way someone thinks, you need a way to bridge theintellectual divide. I believe Introducing a group of LEO's to something positive likeaGrand Master shooter is an excellent way to change someones opinion of Civilian firearm ownership and usage. Unfortunately opinion does sway a persons judgement. Anything we can do to cultivate a positive opinion of our community helps our cause. At the same time I would never want to abandon Legislative change and Judicial pursuits to expand my Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

 

[Comp-tech]

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loudone wrote:

I would hardly call it a bribe.

But it could be considered a gift and, IIRC, LEOs can't accept gifts....this could be seen as an impropriety
and bring about accusations etc.

a few misinformed/misguided LEO's act a certain way

This issue is more than a few "misinformed/misguided LEOs"...this is a statewide issue concerning every LE department that I have heard of/talked to...most sheriffs I've heard about seem to think that they can "make it up as they go"

I'll agree that "academy trainng" is woefully in adequate.

Call/visit an "Academy" and ask about OC.....you'll see just HOW inadequate.

I told her that Alabama has no statute that specificlly bans OC. She then got a little defensive

And you expected what from someone who was trained that OC was illegal?

you would almost certainly be "censored" by a higher ranking LEO like a Sheriff or Chief of Police who is motivated by the political necessity of Re-election or Appointment to Office.

Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 Deprivation of Right Under Color of Law

devise a way to reach the "boots on the ground"

"Boots on the ground" follow orders/policy....citizen opinion would have little effect unless it were "mass public opinion"....such as newspaper articles might garner.

We have to find a way to get through to them.

I believe law suites, officer education and public opinion are the only ways to make a positive change.

I'm thinking more in the terms of thousands of members organizing.

We can't get ten guys to meet up.....I can't even see ten guys being willing to "foot the bill" for one LEO to attend, let alone anything of enough size to matter :banghead:

if a LEO falsely arrest someone or uses excessive force because somone is OC'ing or lawfully CCing I will be the first one to suggest sueing their department

This has aleady happened several times...even to a member of OCDO...please see http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum59/2576-1.html

when a LEO does question someone about a firearm on their person that LEO doesn't know a thing about the person with the gun.

Without PC or RAS, it's none of an LEOs damned business whether a citizen has a gun...period.

That rookie cop who may be the one to confront you is probably more afraid of you then you are of them. You got to respect that they are just doing their job.

There's that PC or RAS thing again........

I believe that as community we should make any contact with LE as civil as possible so that LEO's will see that someone carrying a gun does not automatically = threat or loose cannon.

Agreed...I see no need for incivility to anyone...LEO or not...armed or not...but it is a two way street.

you need a way to bridge the intellectual divide. I believe Introducing a group of LEO's to something positive like a Grand Master shooter is an excellent way to change someones opinion of Civilian firearm ownership and usage. Unfortunately opinion does sway a persons judgement. Anything we can do to cultivate a positive opinion of our community helps our cause.

I just can't believe that this "milk, cookies, and hugs all around" approach would make any changes in the desired direction.
This is not about their "opinion of Civilian firearm ownership and usage".....it is about OUR RIGHTS that are being trampled by their ignorance/indifference/misapplication of/to the laws.

 

[Grapeshot]

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Comp-tech wrote:

I just can't believe that this "milk, cookies, and hugs all around" approach would make any changes in the desired direction.
This is not about their "opinion of Civilian firearm ownership and usage".....it is about OUR RIGHTS that are being trampled by their ignorance/indifference/misapplication of/to the laws.

Comp-tech: You've got your hands full, good luck. I hear posters advocating everything that doesn't work - show them that we are educated and trained (elitist), nice and honest (sheep), talk and plan ad nauseum (lazy), frightened of the bad LEOs and their misinterpretation of the law (more flock mentality). With few exceptions these particular posters are younger and less experienced - nothing wrong with that, we all started there - and still reflect some liberal approaches to solving the problem.

To the readers: Look what has worked in other states, cities, counties and learn. If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it. Never has the white gloved hand approach worked unless the iron gauntlet cleared the way first. Appeasement will win you nothing but cuts and bruises. You apparently are not harmed enough and not willing to step into the breach and do something, anything pro-active. Let someone else do it, "we need thousands." You have laws that are being ignored by LEOs - punish a few and the word will get out. I am somewhat ashamed of my brothers in our sister state of Alabama.

To those that take umbrage at my words: Look in the mirror and ask yourself what are you actively doing to change things and stone me only if you are without sin. Of course I do not live in Alabama and can't know what your circumstances are.....wrong.
They are what you allow them to be!

Yata hey

 

[flounder22]

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We must have a leaded. I`m not joking when I say, Comp-tech for President and vmathis 12019 as Vice President of what needs to be formed, an Alabama Gun Owners Association. I am ready to do anything it takes,but I must be lead by someone who has more smarts then me when it comes to stuff like this. :?

 

[vmathis12019]

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flounder22 wrote:

We must have a leaded. I`m not joking when I say, Comp-tech for President and vmathis 12019 as Vice President of what needs to be formed, an Alabama Gun Owners Association. I am ready to do anything it takes,but I must be lead by someone who has more smarts then me when it comes to stuff like this. :?

I believe I speak for myself and Comptech when I say that I am flattered by your comment. I am EXTREMELY interested in starting up an Alabama Gun Owners Organization, butI don't necessarily know the proper way to go about it either. If we could get a group of people together to show that there is a fair amount of interest in the idea, I could get in touch with my lawyer(who is a supporter of the 2nd amendment) and see if he would be interested in volunteering his efforts to help us. It's a long shot, but it would be worth a try. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking him until we had several (at least 10-15) people together to present our argument to him. That's all I can think of as a first step.

 

[Comp-tech]

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vmathis12019 wrote:

flounder22 wrote:

We must have a leaded. I`m not joking when I say, Comp-tech for President and vmathis 12019 as Vice President of what needs to be formed, an Alabama Gun Owners Association. I am ready to do anything it takes,but I must be lead by someone who has more smarts then me when it comes to stuff like this.

I believe I speak for myself and Comptech when I say that I am flattered by your comment. I am EXTREMELY interested in starting up an Alabama Gun Owners Organization, butI don't necessarily know the proper way to go about it either. If we could get a group of people together to show that there is a fair amount of interest in the idea, I could get in touch with my lawyer (who is a supporter of the 2nd amendment) and see if he would be interested in volunteering his efforts to help us. It's a long shot, but it would be worth a try. I wouldn't feel comfortable asking him until we had several (at least 10-15) people together to present our argument to him. That's all I can think of as a first step.

I too am flattered by your sentiment but, I don't feel that we even need to concern ourselves with P/VP just yet.
I agree with VM that we, as a first step, need to get more interested people involved.....and to have a lawyer that would be willing to be involved.....I have several thoughts/ideas that I'd like to discuss with an attorney.
Maybe we could set a night/time to all "meet up" on the OCDO IRC channel and discuss this "in real time"?
I think that a website would be a cheap way to start "spreading the word" in an effort to gain members...as well as a central location for all the related data.....as stated before, I'm willing to build, host and maintain a site but we still need to discuss some of the "particulars". Is there a particular night that everyone could be available?

 

[vmathis12019]

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Monday night would be perfect for me (no work and no school). Also, might I suggest that we use some sort of instant messenger program? It seems it would be a lot easier to set up a chatroom style conference using something like Windows Live Messenger. Just a thought.

PS. Mitt Romney is a douche.

 

[vmathis12019]

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

^^ You should be able to copy->paste the type if you highlight it. No need to retype. This board has some funky formatting, so if it doesn't work right you might need to 'clean' it through a plain type editor like notepad or something.

I'm gonna not be able to participate much in anything for the next few weeks. I'm starting university next week and I still don't even know my work schedule. Plus I'm working on my pistol permit problem and all kinds of other things

What university if you dont mind me asking?

 

[loudone]

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Grapeshot wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

This is not about their "opinion of Civilian firearm ownership and usage".....

I'm not talking about shooting skeet or hunting. I use my pistol as a deterent to criminals and for my self preservation. If a LEO believes he/sheis within the law to arrest me for it that is obviously their opinion. The fact isthose particular LEO'swould bewrong. I would like that opinion changed so I won't have to deal with ignorance on the part of a few LEO's.
Comp-tech: You've got your hands full, good luck. I hear posters advocating everything that doesn't work - show them that we are educated and trained (elitist), nice and honest (sheep), talk and plan ad nauseum (lazy), frightened of the bad LEOs and their misinterpretation of the law (more flock mentality). With few exceptions these particular posters are younger and less experienced - nothing wrong with that, we all started there - and still reflect some liberal approaches to solving the problem.

That's a pretty bold statement. I'll assume you mean posters like me. I'm only bringing up points for consideration. I've worked as a laborer all of my life, so I really doubt I'm an elitist. Some might call being nice and honest beingrespectful and having integrity. Both of which are positive qualities, so I'll thank you for the compliment. Trust me I'm anything but lazy. I'd rather talk, plan, and do something the smart, effective way than go off half cocked and screw it all up(especially when my rights are involved). Respecting LEO's for the risk they take in the job they dodoes not equal fear. Oh and by the way I had a former co-worker shot in the head by a Sheriff's Deputyjust a little over2 months ago. I can't blame the deputy he was only defending his self. Yet I still carry a pistol as I have for the past 8 years. I even open carry from time to time without fear of the Police.Oh yeah,the first person who told me OC was legal was a Sheriff's Deputy. And that was long before I waseven old enough to purchase a pistol.

To the readers: Look what has worked in other states, cities, counties and learn. If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it. Never has the white gloved hand approach worked unless the iron gauntlet cleared the way first. Appeasement will win you nothing but cuts and bruises. You apparently are not harmed enough and not willing to step into the breach and do something, anything pro-active. Let someone else do it, "we need thousands."

Good point let's look at what has worked in other states. I'll take a small organization like say the NRA. I know 4 million is not exactly the same as "thousands" but just humor me.They're only one of the largest, most respected/feared, loved/hated lobbying groups in theUSA. First off they've been instrumental in getting "Katrina Legislation" and improvements in "Right to carry laws" Nationwide. They're helping push legislation to protect us from the UN. They're helping raise awareness about the DC gunban case. They raise awareness about the exercise of the right to self defense. Oh yeah they are suing New Orleans for the largest confiscation of firearms in American history.That is not to say the NRA hasn't lost some important battles('86 and clintongun ban come to mind). But IMHO the NRA is doing a lot better than VPC or the Brady Sham-paign. So let's look at some of their strategies. They of course have the NRA-ILA department which seeks to bring about positive Legislative and Judicial change. But they also promote safety. They promote LE marksmanship. They promote Civilian Marksmanship. They promote hunting and wild life conservation. They help those with disabilitiesbyassisting shooters with disabilities.In other words they don't limit they're promotion of the RKBA to one aspect. Anyone who is serious about starting a RKBA organization should look at the successes and failures of other organizations. Also New Jerseyand Illinois have groups that are making progress in states that are far more hostile to Gun Owners. If you think any group is entitled to instant success then maybe you're the lazy one.

You have laws that are being ignored by LEOs - punish a few and the word will get out.

Low pay and a dangerous work environmentis more than enough "punishment". I'd rather co-operate and work with those who are sworn to protect and serve than try to "punish". However, I would not have a problem suing a department that violated my Civil Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

I am somewhat ashamed of my brothers in our sister state of Alabama.

I lived in Virginia Beach for two years.From that experienceI can tell youAlabamians have nothing to be ashamed of.

To those that take umbrage at my words: Look in the mirror and ask yourself what are you actively doing to change things and stone me only if you are without sin.

Being a Christian I know I am not without sin. I exercise my rights to Keep and Bear Arms. I do so in a responsible manner so those around me can see that gun owner/user does not equal loose cannon or paranoid crazy person. I have also introduced several people to shooting. By no means is this enough, but it's agood start IMHO.

 

[Grapeshot]

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loudone wrote: Many good and respected points.

Your fervor is appreciated.

I do not have a quarrel with those that contribute positively. My primary thrust was to push and prod posters to this thread beyond complaining and talking, into taking action. To paraphrase: deeds speak much louder than postings.

For whatever reason, it looks like this might be about to happen. Get involved and good luck!

Yata hey

 

[loudone]

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Grapeshot wrote:

loudone wrote: Many good and respected points.

Your fervor is appreciated.

I do not have a quarrel with those that contribute positively. My primary thrust was to push and prod posters to this thread beyond complaining and talking, into taking action. To paraphrase: deeds speak much louder than postings.

For whatever reason, it looks like this might be about to happen. Get involved and good luck!

Yata hey

Thank you.

Debate is always good. Once the internal debate is resolved we must produce a unified front to the oposition.

 

[Jared]

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I disagree with the 21 years of age requirement, your an adult at 18 (some states 19). If you old enough to be drafted to police the world and "spread democracy" , then there is no reason your constitutional right should be denied to you. According to a strict reading of the 2nd amendment the term bear implies the carrying of arms openly; however, Alabama would infringe on that by requiring a Pistol License to carry in a vehicle.

If Alabama would have true gold star open carry status, then the 21 year age for a CCW may not be as bad as it would be.

Keep in mind, in "liberal" New England, Maine is set at 18 for a permit, Vermont does not restrict carrying for those at least 15 years of age, and New Hampshire has no age restriction, they don't seem to have any problems.

My federal LEO agency hires people at 18, some of those people have turned out to be pretty good.

Maybe we could ask the brady campaign what the age should be, they would probably sign on to shall-issue laws if the minimum age was 99