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Open Carry legally available now, but READ ON

DocNTexas

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
300
Location
, Texas, USA
imported post

SA-TX wrote:
Iagree that open carry (whether by permit or general law) would be an improvement and I support it. I do not argue that judges or case law support my position.They should -- who can read the statute and not see it as I do ?! -- but they may not. Nevertheless that doesn't discharge us of our obligations to do the right thing. Here, I think most of us here agree istoo impress upon our lawmakers that the number of areas where we cannot defendourselves is waaaay too high. What if the IL incident happend in TX? Nearly all law-abiding citizens would have been probhibited to carry. This happens way too often (at least 5 times in the last two weeks).

I had a much larger post that was lost during the process. Given the hour, I think this is sufficient. In short, press your legislators for better than we have today(whatever that exactly is) and make sure they know what you think is a good law for tomorrow.

Thanks, SA-TX



I totally agree about the inability of the judges, prosecutors, lawyers and even sometimes the LEO's to read plain English. I think they intentionally write some laws in hard to interpret language in order to allow for variable interpretations. I also think the laws are unfairly applied to the public while letting those charged with enforcing the laws on us go unpunished. A great example is the recent attempt to clarify or define, if you will, the traveling provision, which allows for the unlicensed carry of a handgun in a motor vehicle. After passing a relatively clear law, several DA'spublicly vowed to continue prosecuting people found to be carrying under the law, claiming that it still required one to prove it in court. Their actions were, in my opinion, abuse of power and a violation of the law, perpetrated on the innocent civilian population in order to illegally remove your rights by vowing to use their authority to falsely accuse you and cost you money to prove your innocence. Their idea was that the risk they posed would discourage people from exercising their right to do so. This is coercion through the illegal use of their power. As such, these prosecutors should have been prosecuted themselves for their actions, but were they? NO! Fortunately, the legislators remedied the problem in the next session with the rewrite, however, these same prosecutors are vowing to push for a reversal of this law next session.

My question is this. Where did these guysget the idea that their job was to write or influence legislation? A DA's job is to enforce the laws as written, no matter if they agree withthem of not. When it comes to changing legislation, they have no more right or authority then you or me and if they don't like a law and want to see it changes, they should use their own time and money to influence the legislators from their district as a citizen, not a DA.Furthermore, if they knowingly file false charges against someone simply because they do not like or agree with a particular law as it is written, they should face the courts just as we would. Unfortunately, this is not the case anduntil we can get it changed, wewill simply have to live it. I already have letters written to the various news agencies in the areas where these DA's reside addressing their misuse of power, use of taxpayer money to promote their own personal views and so forthand plan to send them prior to the start of the next legislative session. Hopefully it will make them think about the damage it could have on them come re-election time.

As you can tell from my previous post, Iactively support and work toward improvinggun and carrylaws on a regular basis. I am hoping for an all out push for both open carry and removal of restrictions on CCW next session. I have a daughter in college now and one of the greatest threats I see is the use of Muslim students to attack students on our campuses. Where better than to use active students that know the layout, have access to all areas and are known residents on campus. They know where and when to strike and can do it easily. Imagine an organized simultaneous attack on multiple campuses across the nation, how many fatalities could there be? The only protection would be armed students, so I am pushing for campus carry very hard. My daughter has been shooting her entire life and as soon as my daughter turned 21, I had her in a CHL class. She carries religiously and the only time she is without iswhile inclass.

According to Linda Tripp, the legislative Director for the TSRA, the TSRA president needs to hear this from as many people as possible in order to get it moved to the from of the TSRA's legislative agenda next session, so take the time to call and/or write him and ask that the TSRApush for open carryand removal of restrictions on CCWnext session. Also, if you are not a member of TSRA, please consider joining. Linda does a fantastic job for us here in Texas.

As pointed out before, while we may not agree on all the fine points, we definitely agree on the major ones, which works for me.

Take care and be safe,

Doc
 

Maveric

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
11
Location
New Braunfels, Texas, USA
imported post

well kinda skipping around though this, getting the point of this, and wanting to say my 2c worth, yeah we may get arrested, but what if we just made a date where we all took out or 44 remington new army's strapped them on, and walked out the door, that would get media attention in the very least, and be a huuuuuge fight for a good cause, might wake a few people up.
Of course if y'all are nervious and stuff about it, so be it, but when i get a all steel 44 mag remington, and get enough other people interested...id do it.
after all, isnt the best time to think is in a jail cell? :D
oh and why fight about cartridge vs cap n ball? remington new army and several cylinders, easy to reload it then, sides cap and ball revolvers would kill someone almost just as easily.

Take it easy

P.S y'all ever notice that absolutely NO crimes have (since id say at least 1930) have been commited with a black powder gun? if anyone has statistics on any of that let me know but, from what i understand no one uses cap n ball anymore, course criminals arent that smart.
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
imported post

MarkNH wrote:
pre-1899 FAQ: http://www.empirearms.com/pre-1899.htm

If you still disagree you are welcome to call BATFE directly and ask them.

Dennis Kroh (of Empire Arms) is not just a dealer, he's also an importer. His experience is vast and his knowledge is beyond question. He has a close working relationship with ATF, and does not take chances!

Doc, I consider you to be one of the best authorities on Texas law, but you're incorrect on the federal law defining antiques. The pre-1899 definition is well established, and accepted by ATF. Mark has described it correctly as ATF enforces it.

As for your experience with pre-1899 Mausers, that's one of those ATF quirks. ATF insists that the receiver is the gun, forever, when it comes to Class III, handguns v. long guns, etc., but if a pre-1899 receiver (which is not a firearm per ATF) is either newly assembled or rebarrelled into any but its original configuration, that conversion date becomes the date it was "manufactured". It loses its antique status at that point.

Yes, it's inconsistent with the law as written, but that's the ATF ruling. Fortunately, they have consistently ruled that all pre-1899 things-that-work-like-firearms are not "firearms" under federal law. Black powder, smokeless, muzzle loading, paper cartridge, centerfire, rimfire... ammo type and ignition source only apply to replicas.

There are numerous modern centerfire cartridges that originated before 1899. Some started as black powder, others as cordite, and some as smokeless. As mentioned, 7.62x54R, .303 British, most of the Mauser family, and (speaking of handguns), .30 Mauser.

So go ahead, strap on that C96 Mauser pistol, and carry away. :D
 

DocNTexas

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
300
Location
, Texas, USA
imported post

KBCraig wrote:
MarkNH wrote:
pre-1899 FAQ: http://www.empirearms.com/pre-1899.htm

If you still disagree you are welcome to call BATFE directly and ask them.

Dennis Kroh (of Empire Arms) is not just a dealer, he's also an importer. His experience is vast and his knowledge is beyond question. He has a close working relationship with ATF, and does not take chances!

Doc, I consider you to be one of the best authorities on Texas law, but you're incorrect on the federal law defining antiques. The pre-1899 definition is well established, and accepted by ATF. Mark has described it correctly as ATF enforces it.

As for your experience with pre-1899 Mausers, that's one of those ATF quirks. ATF insists that the receiver is the gun, forever, when it comes to Class III, handguns v. long guns, etc., but if a pre-1899 receiver (which is not a firearm per ATF) is either newly assembled or rebarrelled into any but its original configuration, that conversion date becomes the date it was "manufactured". It loses its antique status at that point.

Yes, it's inconsistent with the law as written, but that's the ATF ruling. Fortunately, they have consistently ruled that all pre-1899 things-that-work-like-firearms are not "firearms" under federal law. Black powder, smokeless, muzzle loading, paper cartridge, centerfire, rimfire... ammo type and ignition source only apply to replicas.

There are numerous modern centerfire cartridges that originated before 1899. Some started as black powder, others as cordite, and some as smokeless. As mentioned, 7.62x54R, .303 British, most of the Mauser family, and (speaking of handguns), .30 Mauser.

So go ahead, strap on that C96 Mauser pistol, and carry away. :D

KBCraig,

Sorry it took so long to reply, but I have been predisposed with other matters lately.

Since the start of this discussion I have put a considerable amount of research into the matter, as well as, having others, in a better position than me, research the matter.I also discussed the matter with a couple of collectors I know and an importer I met at a recent gun show and based on this information, I am inclined to agree with you and the others as to the position of the BATF on the subject.

My friend, the district judge, finallygot back to me with his research results and opinion and he too agrees that this is the position of the BATF and that it should be the position of the state, however, he feels that Texas courts would likely not hold that position as a rule. Furthermore, he feels that if the matter were to go before the Texas Supreme Court, they would likely rule against this as well, likely ruling on "intent" of the law, not actual wording. While he says he would rule for it in his court, he would expect it to be overturned by higher courts.

As an experiment, I called the BATF again and posed the exact same scenario as before and was initially told the same thing as before, but when I questioned their answer, I was put on hold and upon his return, I was told just the opposite. So, it would appear that the people answering the phones and questions at the BATF are not up to speed on the facts either. The final answer this days was that no FFL was needed to transfer the old Mausers I purchased. Go figure.

So, based on thelatest information I have been able to dig up, I must agree with your position. As for openly carrying one inTexas, well, I am not sure I want to be the test case there. I agree that it SHOULD be legal, however, I also agree with the judge, inthat, it is not that cut and dry under our legal system and I feel it is doubtful that one would prevail in the end. At the very least, it would certainly cost you dearly to win it. Gotta love our courts.

Doc

P.S. Inreviewing some of the previous posts I noted that I referred to the TSRA Legislative Director as "Linda Tripp", when in fact her name is "Alice Tripp" (Linda is a local acquaintance of mine). So, if you send her a letter, don't call her Linda. LOL (I gotta stop working such long hours.)
 
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