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Nat'nl Mot'rst Assoc. alert re asserting right to protect your rights in police stops
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
don mckenzie355
New member
question to those in police confortations
Has any one ever asked the officer about the emotional stress due to fact that they have bullets and you don't?
and how they would feel on the other side ?
why do they get to carry in gun restricted area's and why people don't feel threatened by that ?
Has any one ever asked the officer about the emotional stress due to fact that they have bullets and you don't?
and how they would feel on the other side ?
why do they get to carry in gun restricted area's and why people don't feel threatened by that ?
Yard Sale
Regular Member
Speak for yourself.
Tackleberry1
Regular Member
Sorry for reviving such an old thread but HOLLY COW... how do so many people have such bad encounters?
I'll admit I'm a 40 year old white guy living in a rural area and leading a pretty tame life... but I've never had a Cop push a traffic stop beyond the traffic issue?
So... What is drawing the added scrutiny? Or is just "dick" Cops is other areas?
Just trying to figure out if I'm doing something "right" or just lucky to be a white man living where I do?
Tack
I'll admit I'm a 40 year old white guy living in a rural area and leading a pretty tame life... but I've never had a Cop push a traffic stop beyond the traffic issue?
So... What is drawing the added scrutiny? Or is just "dick" Cops is other areas?
Just trying to figure out if I'm doing something "right" or just lucky to be a white man living where I do?
Tack
It is cops overstepping their authority...Doesn't matter if you live in a big city or small town, they exist everywhere (not saying every cop is like this, but that they can be in any town).
johnfenter
Regular Member
Okay... what about AFTER the arrest? Now you're at the jail....
This has been percolating in my mind for a little while, probably after viewing some episodes of "Jail" on television. Let's say that, for some reason, the police have decided to give you the "ride" because they are punishing you for "contempt of cop". You have, up to this point, been exercising your rights; maybe you weren't even carrying ID, you shut up until your attorney can arrive, etc. Now, you have been divested of your gun, ammo, etc. and your pockets are empty. Your recorder has been seized. You arrive at the jail in cuffs in the back seat. From what I have seen, there are a BUNCH of rules at a jail that you can be punished for breaking, like refusing to walk from the car to the door, not answering questions at jail check-in, not answering medical/psych questions from the nurse, etc. So here's the question - once arrested, how does one practice rights at the jail? If you answer their questions, they will turn around and give those answers to the arresting officers for their reports. WHAT am I required to provide as a jail inmate? If I refuse to answer questions, will I get my phone call? Attorneys, feel free to opine...
This has been percolating in my mind for a little while, probably after viewing some episodes of "Jail" on television. Let's say that, for some reason, the police have decided to give you the "ride" because they are punishing you for "contempt of cop". You have, up to this point, been exercising your rights; maybe you weren't even carrying ID, you shut up until your attorney can arrive, etc. Now, you have been divested of your gun, ammo, etc. and your pockets are empty. Your recorder has been seized. You arrive at the jail in cuffs in the back seat. From what I have seen, there are a BUNCH of rules at a jail that you can be punished for breaking, like refusing to walk from the car to the door, not answering questions at jail check-in, not answering medical/psych questions from the nurse, etc. So here's the question - once arrested, how does one practice rights at the jail? If you answer their questions, they will turn around and give those answers to the arresting officers for their reports. WHAT am I required to provide as a jail inmate? If I refuse to answer questions, will I get my phone call? Attorneys, feel free to opine...
jrmullen93
Regular Member
@johnfenter
Excellent question!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Excellent question!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
user
Accomplished Advocate
NOTA BENE: Since having posted this, I have been retired and my website is gone. I still have the documentation I'd posted there, though it may now be out of date. Anyway, if you want anything, let me know by PM or email (see profile:status for email address).
=====
Take a look at my website, and scroll down to where it says, "other useful stuff" - there's a PDF file there you can download and copy called "letter to law enforcement". Use the letter and there's no need to talk at all - not only that, but the letter's well-documented, so if you produce a copy in court with testimony that you gave it to the cop and the cop ignored it, well, too bad for the cop.
On the other hand, I was asked today to review some video data produced by a local sheriff's office about what to do in a traffic stop. For security reasons, I don't allow the software required to look at it on my computer. I strongly suspect that law enforcement agencies have their own version of semi-benign "virus" software that takes advantage of the security holes created by that software. I have actual knowledge from prior court cases that they do that in many circumstances, especially where child pornography is involved. Since this is a law office, I can't take chances with my computers, so I never saw what they produced.
Also, I have a history of doing personal defense law seminars and teaching the part-three legal lecture in the NRA personal protection classes, and I don't think I'm going to do that any more. Here's why, summarizing what I told the guy who asked me to review the video: "The current trend in such public announcements is, 'you can forget about cops being subject to the law, they don't know and they don't care - watch out and be really careful because if they shoot you, it's your fault.' And there's a good reason why they're like that, it's because many prosecutors and judges are like that. It is an increasingly corrupt age. My opinions are all about what the law says, but that's all out the window, so I don't know what to tell people anymore. You can't rely on the law working, because the people who manage The System aren't intellectually honest or reliable."
=====
Take a look at my website, and scroll down to where it says, "other useful stuff" - there's a PDF file there you can download and copy called "letter to law enforcement". Use the letter and there's no need to talk at all - not only that, but the letter's well-documented, so if you produce a copy in court with testimony that you gave it to the cop and the cop ignored it, well, too bad for the cop.
On the other hand, I was asked today to review some video data produced by a local sheriff's office about what to do in a traffic stop. For security reasons, I don't allow the software required to look at it on my computer. I strongly suspect that law enforcement agencies have their own version of semi-benign "virus" software that takes advantage of the security holes created by that software. I have actual knowledge from prior court cases that they do that in many circumstances, especially where child pornography is involved. Since this is a law office, I can't take chances with my computers, so I never saw what they produced.
Also, I have a history of doing personal defense law seminars and teaching the part-three legal lecture in the NRA personal protection classes, and I don't think I'm going to do that any more. Here's why, summarizing what I told the guy who asked me to review the video: "The current trend in such public announcements is, 'you can forget about cops being subject to the law, they don't know and they don't care - watch out and be really careful because if they shoot you, it's your fault.' And there's a good reason why they're like that, it's because many prosecutors and judges are like that. It is an increasingly corrupt age. My opinions are all about what the law says, but that's all out the window, so I don't know what to tell people anymore. You can't rely on the law working, because the people who manage The System aren't intellectually honest or reliable."
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davidmcbeth
Banned
Actually in "Useful information" section and the PDF has you identifying yourself .. wherein IDing is not required w/o RAS.
A better letter is one ??? that just says :
"I do not consent to any encounter with you so, GO AWAY NOW!"
Hand a cop anything more verbose and you'll lose his attention to it in 1 second.
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user
Accomplished Advocate
As to the "what about when I'm in jail" question:
First thing is to have a good attorney whom you trust lined up in advance. When you get to the jail and say you want a lawyer, they'll ask you who your lawyer is, and if you don't already know, they'll hand you a phone book. I'm reminded of a commercial for the Virginia Lottery System when the girl behind the cash register is watching the ticket purchaser sweat over his decision, and finally says, "It's a lottery ticket; pick one." Well, that's what it is when you have to pick a lawyer out of the phone book - a lottery in which the odds are stacked against you.
The system assumes that you will lack patience, and will be so emotionally traumatized by the experience that you will eventually do whatever it is they want you to do, e.g., make a recorded statement, sign a confession, agree to a plea bargain, etc. So the key thing is to realize that you are in someone else's custody, just like a small child in the custody of parents. They are fully responsible for your care and feeding, just as if you were a small child, and if they are deficient in that respect, the local sheriff is personally liable (in Virginia). So be patient, fully co-operative, and calm, no matter what happens. When they try to provoke them, realize that's what's going on and ignore it - roll over and go to sleep. They like to pretend that their internal administrative system is absolute and final, but that's not how it is, and while you have to obey their orders, you don't have to buy into their system, because both you and they are under the same operative body of law, and that is what really applies. It's a waiting game. Just wait. (This all assumes someone on the outside has your back and will be working to get the matter resolved.)
First thing is to have a good attorney whom you trust lined up in advance. When you get to the jail and say you want a lawyer, they'll ask you who your lawyer is, and if you don't already know, they'll hand you a phone book. I'm reminded of a commercial for the Virginia Lottery System when the girl behind the cash register is watching the ticket purchaser sweat over his decision, and finally says, "It's a lottery ticket; pick one." Well, that's what it is when you have to pick a lawyer out of the phone book - a lottery in which the odds are stacked against you.
The system assumes that you will lack patience, and will be so emotionally traumatized by the experience that you will eventually do whatever it is they want you to do, e.g., make a recorded statement, sign a confession, agree to a plea bargain, etc. So the key thing is to realize that you are in someone else's custody, just like a small child in the custody of parents. They are fully responsible for your care and feeding, just as if you were a small child, and if they are deficient in that respect, the local sheriff is personally liable (in Virginia). So be patient, fully co-operative, and calm, no matter what happens. When they try to provoke them, realize that's what's going on and ignore it - roll over and go to sleep. They like to pretend that their internal administrative system is absolute and final, but that's not how it is, and while you have to obey their orders, you don't have to buy into their system, because both you and they are under the same operative body of law, and that is what really applies. It's a waiting game. Just wait. (This all assumes someone on the outside has your back and will be working to get the matter resolved.)
user
Accomplished Advocate
Even though the author of this post is apparently no longer with us, I thought the questions ought to have been answered. His problem which I hope to show for the benefit of others, is that he thinks the confrontation is between himself and a specific person in the form of a cop. That's wrong. The cop is a mignon, the lowest man on the totem pole, and except for the psychopaths who choose law enforcement because it satisfies their need to beat up on people (there are a few) the cop has no personal interest in you, and it really doesn't matter what he thinks about your defenses and arguments. He's probably already decided what he's going to do before he even starts talking, and any delay in doing what he wants is purely for the purpose of helping you set yourself up for more trouble. No, your problem is with The System, and the cop is merely the manifestation of that system at the time.
My "letter to law enforcement" has nothing to do with requirements. It has to do with setting up the system to play in your court. If you end up getting arrested, and your evidence shows that you gave the cop the lettter, a judge or jury will read the letter, and that's when it counts. Who cares whether the cop actually reads it or not. You told him and put him on notice, whether it ignores it or not is his problem.
Getting wrapped around the axle emotionally ( which is what the post in question represents by capital letters and the exclamation point) is a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot, and is exactly what the more belligerant cops want. Do not be confrontational. It would be sufficient to say, "I'm sorry, I don't feel like chatting, just now. Please excuse me." and walk away. If they do anything to stop you at that point, say, "Okay, I understand that I am now not free to leave and that you have detained me, and that's the only reason I'm not walking away." For civil purposes, that's false arrest, false imprisonment (same cause of action in Virginia). You're still not obliged to say anything, though it does make sense to identify yourself when the cop asks (that means orally disclosing your name and residence address, no production of any kind of documentation is required unless you need a license to do whatever you were doing when the cop stopped you). But even at that, it would be good to say, "That's really all I have to say, Officer."
Attempting to command a cop to "GO AWAY!", frankly, demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of the situation, and as the old saying goes, "There ain't no cure for 'stupid'."
Doug_Nightmare
Active member
It is good to see you active!
mignon (plural mignons)
Tip o’ the hat.
mignon (plural mignons)
- (rare, obsolete) A cute or pretty person; a dandy; a pretty child. [18th-19th c.] quotations ▼
- (historical) One of the court favourites of Henry III of France. [from 20th c.] quotations ▼
Tip o’ the hat.
user
Accomplished Advocate
Thanks for that; I view "minion" as a recent adaptation - I use the word in a connotative sense of a diminutive servant. Igor to Dr. Frankenstein, Renfrew to Dracula, Cop to State.
Doug_Nightmare
Active member
user
Accomplished Advocate
I've always gotten a chuckle out of the cynical humor that underlies that phrase. No one ever asks, "to protect and serve whom, exactly?" And the answer is there but wishful thinking fools the public: it's The State. The cops exist to protect and serve The State. Not the people - the Supreme Court has said that there is no duty to either protect or serve anyone other than The State so many times, you'd think someone would have noticed.
Take the recent Texas school shooting, for example. Why did the cops just stand around while children were being murdered? Because they can. And, as Eric Holder famously said, one must not let a crisis go unexploited. They had to get all the gun-control mileage out of it that they could.