DamonK
Regular Member
I'm trying to find the case law that makes LEOs running your serial number at a traffic stop illegal. Kind of having a brain fart today though. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
You'll want to look for 4A case law (search & seizure), because taking the pistol is a seizure and running the serial # is a search.DamonK said:I'm trying to find the case law that makes LEOs running your serial number at a traffic stop illegal.
I don't think the act of running a serial number is in and of itself illegal... it would be like any other search, depending upon consent and/or probable cause of a crime to conduct said search....
some cursory research came up with Hicks v. Arizona a SCOTUS ruling involving some police officers who entered an apartment due to someone firing shots from said apartment and after arresting the occupants and securing the guns an officer wrote down serial numbers on a stereo and found them to be stolen, charging the apartment occupants with possession of stolen property. that conviction was overturned on the basis that the stereo had nothing to do with the warrantless entry into the apartment as they already secured the shooter and weapons.
I suppose that could be applied to a gun since during a traffic stop if you're lawfully carrying the gun is not evidence of a traffic violation. but it's a stretch
Held:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/480/321
1. The policeman's actions come within the purview of the Fourth Amendment. The mere recording of the serial numbers did not constitute a "seizure" since it did not meaningfully interfere with respondent's possessory interest in either the numbers or the stereo equipment. However, the moving of the equipment was a "search" separate and apart from the search that was the lawful objective of entering the apartment. The fact that the search uncovered nothing of great personal value to respondent is irrelevant. Pp. 324-325.
From: Xxxx Xxxxx
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 7:01 PM
To: FIPB Regulatory Email inquiries
Subject: Obscured serial number
Some buddies and I are having a rather heated discussion about this....
If I were to put a piece of black tape over the serial number of my CCW handgun (1911 style) would that constitute "obscuring" the serial number and be illegal? The serial number is in no way defaced, altered or removed, all you have to do to see the serial number is remove the tape. If this does constitute obscuring then isn't every S&W shipped with the large grips which cover the serial number on the butt illegal? There are a number of after market products that cover the serial number, would that be illegal? If not but the tape is what is the difference?
Thank You
Bob
FIPB Regulatory Email inquiries <FIPB@atf.gov>
9/19/12
to me
This is in response to your email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your email, you wanted to know if covering a serial number of a firearm with tape be constituted as obscuring.
Under Federal law, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed,
obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported
in interstate or foreign commerce.
Merely, attaching black tape to a firearms serial number does not constitute a violation of Federal law.
Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.
Regards,
Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF
........ I have a piece of black tape over the serial number on my carry piece.........
A piece of security tape that reads VOID when it's removed would be a nice touch!
Incorrect.some cursory research came up with Hicks v. Arizona a SCOTUS ruling involving some police officers who entered an apartment due to someone firing shots from said apartment and after arresting the occupants and securing the guns an officer wrote down serial numbers on a stereo and found them to be stolen, charging the apartment occupants with possession of stolen property. that conviction was overturned on the basis that the stereo had nothing to do with the warrantless entry into the apartment as they already secured the shooter and weapons.
Correct (although the legal concept is "plain view exception"). This scenario raises the question of whether the handgun was lawfully seized at the onset. In order for LEO to seize the handgun for "officer safety," arguably there must be more than the mere possibility that the owner "could have" used the weapon. There must be some evidence that the owner actually created a clear and present threat to the safety of others. There mere lawful possession of the weapon is not sufficient to entail that clear and present danger. I believe that the majority of times that LEO seize a weapon "for their own safety," they do so in violation of BOR 2 Am and 4 Am, and Art. I, sects. 3 and 24 of the WA Const.I think you are missing the most salient point of Hicks; the stereo equipment was "in plain view" and the officers attempted to use the "plain sight exemption" to run the serial numbers. EXCEPT the court ruled that since the equipment had to be moved to see the serial numbers, the numbers were not in plain view and required probable cause/warrant to conduct a search, invalidating the arrest.
In order for LEO to seize the handgun for "officer safety," arguably there must be more than the mere possibility that the owner "could have" used the weapon.
simple solution is to make the part of the gun that usually has a serial # yourself .. ie make your own gun.
You need not affix a serial # to a homemade gun.
Then what they gonna run?
I'm trying to find the case law that makes LEOs running your serial number at a traffic stop illegal. Kind of having a brain fart today though. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
I have 3 80% AR lowers due to arrive any day now :lol::lol:
80% better than 100 !
Yep! They definitely are in some respects....
Just [I]requires all kinds of tools [/I]I don't have, but the aspect of ,having a gun you made yourself certainly has a pride factor to itin addition to no records being kept
WRONG ANSWER!!
I can finish an 80% lower with nothing more than a drill press. A cheap US$50 drill press and a bit of patience is all that is required. I have several ARs with NO roll marks. It makes them look better without all those little words and numbers all over the place.