freeSTATE101
Regular Member
do i have to show police id if stopped for oc'ing?
THIS is a video you need to watch. Titled "Don't Talk to Cops", it's 48 minutes, half by a law professor (talking at warp speed) & half by a LEO.
Make the time to watch it at least once. One of the most valuble ways to spend an hour.
+1, Agree watch the youtube video. Never talk to the cops unless your required to under your states law.
this imo, is dumb advice. cops are not the enemy.
if you are caught red handed after you just murdered somebody, though... i would agree. unless you WANT to take responsibility of course.
however, on case law, the advice is correct that GENERALLY speaking (again, there is major variance state to state) in states where open carry is legal, the cops cannot stop you or demand ID for open carrying
the problem is, if a cop stops you, and you are OC'ing there may be additional reasons why he is stopping you, so he may in fact have a valid reason to demand ID, and you refuse, you will get arrested for obstruction
it is certainly fine to ask what you are being stopped for
i was stopped at gunpoint once for doing nothing wrong (long story) but the cops were justified
IF i had been OCing, and i assumed they were stopping me FOR OCing and refused to comply with demands to keep my hands up, etc. i would quite likely have been shot if i reached
and i was also required to give ID since they had RS
if a cop asks for ID, ask them "are you requesting it or demanding it?"
if they say they are demanding it, the best bet is to COMPLY, but to make sure you follow up to determine why you were stopped etc.
in many cases, it may be civilly actionable, or even criminally actionable
The reason we don't talk to police when we aren't required to by law is that we have no idea what state, county or city ordinance they may be looking to bust us for. I will interact with a police officer only the minimum amount required by law, which I have a very good idea what the minimum is, in Washington, and will politely refuse to consent to all other interactions.
No, cops aren't the enemy. But the individual cop asking you questions about what you are doing and why, is by definition in an adversarial relationship with you.this imo, is dumb advice. cops are not the enemy.
Why is it good advice to NOT talk to the police and risk incriminating yourself if you are guilty of something,if you are caught red handed after you just murdered somebody, though... i would agree. unless you WANT to take responsibility of course.
Nope, sorry. 1) I'm not required to carry ID, but I may be required to possess a license for a licensed activity. 2) I can be required to provide identification, and the Supreme Court has ruled that a true oral statement meets that requirement. 3) Obstruction is not the same as non-cooperation. IF it were, then the police only have to ask every citizen they encounter "have you committed a crime?" and if the person refuses to answer truthfully then they could be arrested.however, on case law, the advice is correct that GENERALLY speaking (again, there is major variance state to state) in states where open carry is legal, the cops cannot stop you or demand ID for open carrying
the problem is, if a cop stops you, and you are OC'ing there may be additional reasons why he is stopping you, so he may in fact have a valid reason to demand ID, and you refuse, you will get arrested for obstruction.
See above, you may be required to identify yourself, but since you are under no legal obligation to carry identification you can't be required to provide it.it is certainly fine to ask what you are being stopped for
i was stopped at gunpoint once for doing nothing wrong (long story) but the cops were justified
IF i had been OCing, and i assumed they were stopping me FOR OCing and refused to comply with demands to keep my hands up, etc. i would quite likely have been shot if i reached
and i was also required to give ID since they had RS
If Officer Friendly is just "...havin' a friendly-like conversation, I jus' need to identify you for my records" voluntary encounter then I have absolutely no problem with providing him with state issued identification.if a cop asks for ID, ask them "are you requesting it or demanding it?"
if they say they are demanding it, the best bet is to COMPLY, but to make sure you follow up to determine why you were stopped etc.
in many cases, it may be civilly actionable, or even criminally actionable
You have made a lot of assertions in this post, but cited no statutes or any case law. Please do so. Problem is, you can't...everything you have said goes against statutes and case law. Only anecdotes of your own experience.
Oh, and it's very bad advice.
the problem with this "logic" is it assumes only inculpatory stuff is offered by the detaineeThat is part of it, yes. Anything that you voluntarily offer to the officer, whether it be an object or verbal information, can be used against you because you voluntarily gave it up, and the only way to get that thrown out is to prove you were coerced into offering it.
But there's more to it than that. First, are you being detained or not? Establish that up front. That is the first question that will come up in court. Unless you are stopped with blue and red lights and it is 100% obvious your are being detained, ASK. "Am I being detained?" If the answer is no, then, "Respectfully, officer, but I do not wish to have a voluntary interaction with you, and I will be on my way now." Make it clear that you do not consent to an encounter. The burden of proof, in court, then falls upon the officer to prove they had lawful reason to detain you.
Then, if you are being detained, why in heck would you offer anything up voluntarily? The officer is looking for something to charge you with, or else they would not have detained you. If it is a traffic stop, don't offer anything about weapons, unless you have to by law. If it is for some unkown reason on the street, know your state law in regards to providing things such as ID and firearms licenses and offer nothing that is not required to by law. That way, if the officer searches for it without your consent, they must prove their justification in court.
The minute you admit to carrying a weapon during a detainment, they have the right to frisk you and search the immediate area from which you can obtain a weapon without your consent - UNLESS you can convince a court to actually separate being armed from being dangerous to the officer or others. Good luck with that.
Which is it going to be? You are saying two opposite things. Now you say you will assert your rights. But your previous post says:
Nobody is saying that cops are the enemy. All we ARE saying is assert your rights, and, if they are not detaining you, walk away. You appear to be trying to be on both sides of the fence at the same time.
PALO. SOME cops behave like the enemy. Have you seen the Canton, Ohio video? Or the one from Penn. Where the cop started with "YO, JUNIOR"? The man in Penn. was simply OCing and even tried to inform the cop of his own departments internal directive stating that OC is legal. The cop wouldn't listen. I assume the the vast majority of cops are good, but not all of them are our friend.
As with many things, laws vary by state.PALO said:he may in fact have a valid reason to demand ID, and you refuse, you will get arrested for obstruction
"Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."PALO said:people routinely exculpate themselves WHEN innocent (and sometimes even when guilty) by talking
Hmmm... so you're from Kent (which is across the Atlantic) & you speak British.otherwise, he'll have PC for vehicle prowl.
As with many things, laws vary by state.
(Laws concerning rights shouldn't vary, but unfortunately they do.)
Here in WI, for example, the state Supreme Court ruled that merely refusing to provide one's name - remaining silent - is not grounds for obstruction (and therefore some form of physical, state-issued ID would certainly be covered).
Some officers still haven't learned this, & will try to write a ticket or arrest someone, but it won't go anywhere... and that gives grounds for a wrongful arrest suit & settlement or punative damages.
"Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."
Miranda says absolutely nothing about something you say being used to your advantage.
If you'd watched that video I referenced you would understand this.
Hmmm... so you're from Kent (which is across the Atlantic) & you speak British.
What are you doing over here trying to teach us about American rights?
Maybe ask Mike & John to set up a forum for the British Empire.
As with many things, laws vary by state.
(Laws concerning rights shouldn't vary, but unfortunately they do.)
Here in WI, for example, the state Supreme Court ruled that merely refusing to provide one's name - remaining silent - is not grounds for obstruction (and therefore some form of physical, state-issued ID would certainly be covered).
Some officers still haven't learned this, & will try to write a ticket or arrest someone, but it won't go anywhere... and that gives grounds for a wrongful arrest suit & settlement or punative damages.
"Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law."
Miranda says absolutely nothing about something you say being used to your advantage.
If you'd watched that video I referenced you would understand this.
Hmmm... so you're from Kent (which is across the Atlantic) & you speak British.
What are you doing over here trying to teach us about American rights?
Maybe ask Mike & John to set up a forum for the British Empire.
i totally agree. and there is no group on earth, that doesn't have bad apples. cops, because of their general authoritah often have substnatial means to be a jerk AND make your life miserable because of their jerkiness.
that being said, i am not a bigot. i don't assume cop X is a bad guy or the enemy, because a tiny %age of cops ARE.
i treat people with respect, regardless of race, creed, religion, ethnicity, or that they are a cop. ime, even IF somebody is prone to be a jerk, having a respectful friendly attitude often goes a long way towards DEFUSING a situation with such a person.
the ONE time in my life, i had a cop be a jerk towards me, was when i was a jerk towards him FIRST.
should he have been professional and not stooped to my level? yes. but people, cops included, are imperfect
The logic is quite solid. Remember the warning "anything you say can and will be used against you ..."? Notice where it doesn't say anything you say to clear yourself will be used on your behalf?the problem with this "logic" is it assumes only inculpatory stuff is offered by the detainee
this imo, is dumb advice. cops are not the enemy.
if you are caught red handed after you just murdered somebody, though... i would agree. unless you WANT to take responsibility of course.
however, on case law, the advice is correct that GENERALLY speaking (again, there is major variance state to state) in states where open carry is legal, the cops cannot stop you or demand ID for open carrying
the problem is, if a cop stops you, and you are OC'ing there may be additional reasons why he is stopping you, so he may in fact have a valid reason to demand ID, and you refuse, you will get arrested for obstruction
it is certainly fine to ask what you are being stopped for
i was stopped at gunpoint once for doing nothing wrong (long story) but the cops were justified
IF i had been OCing, and i assumed they were stopping me FOR OCing and refused to comply with demands to keep my hands up, etc. i would quite likely have been shot if i reached
and i was also required to give ID since they had RS
if a cop asks for ID, ask them "are you requesting it or demanding it?"
if they say they are demanding it, the best bet is to COMPLY, but to make sure you follow up to determine why you were stopped etc.
in many cases, it may be civilly actionable, or even criminally actionable
it's good advice
case law varies STATE TO STATE
i am not going to cite case law in ever state in the union
the PRIMARY dominant case is terry v. ohio wherein authority to detain pursuant to RS is established.
i can state authoritatively in MY STATE, cops cannot detain merely for OCing, nor can they demand id
cops can "social contact" anybody for any reason, but if done to people for OC'ing, and especially if a "pattern", it makes them liable for the civil tort of harassment
i have been contacted by cops a lot (played in a loud band in college, bla bla). ime, having a respectful and friendly attitude is a benefit.
i was, on a few occasions given verbal warnings for stuff i COULD have been cited for. if i was a dick, i likely would have been
you make your choices. i'll make mine. cops are not the enemy, although SOME, unfortunately can and will violate our rights vis a vis stopping us for open carry. when and if that happens, i will be police, respectful BUT i will assert my rights, and i will use PROPER, LEGAL means of redress if my rights are violated