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Should gun owners abandon the Republican Party?

swillden

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marshaul wrote:
Tess wrote:
Much more important than debating whether a third party could (or would) do anything differently should be a push to abandon both the Democrat and the Republican parties.

Get American away from "us" vs "them" -- don't vote party, vote issues.

To keep a consistent message on that, rather than on ad hominem attacks and "Dems are evil" and "Republicans are confused", would go a long way toward getting people back to what is important.

We would do extremely well if we could get both parties away from defining themselves by one or two issues.

Would Obama have won if people didn't frame the issue as "Bush = Republican, Bush is bad, therefore Democrats are good"? If people had voted on issues, balancing them appropriately, we might have seen the same end game, but the scoreboard would look significantly different.
Precisely right.
True, but pointless, because the average American isn't going to work that hard, and the parties are never going to stop defining themselves by one or two issues because it works. If you want to make real change, you have to accept that the parties are the vehicle, and figure out how to drive them where you want them.
 

unreconstructed1

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my 2 cents:

it doesn't matter whether you vote (R) or (D), but as long as you ARE voting (R) or (D) then we all lose.

while there are seneral pro-gun, pro freedom democrats, there are also many chicken s**t neo con warhawks, and fake conservative Republicans as well. the problem is, the wrong people are in control of both parties.

personally, I choose to vote with my ideals and my conscience as opposed to voting for who I think will win. That's why we've had the incompetent morally bankrupt retards in office that we have been forced to deal with for a little over 20 something years.
 

swillden

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unreconstructed1 wrote:
personally, I choose to vote with my ideals and my conscience as opposed to voting for who I think will win.
The major party whose ideals are furthest from yours is very grateful to you and those like you, and hopes that you'll both continue and encourage those who think like you to do the same.
 

AWDstylez

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swillden wrote:
unreconstructed1 wrote:
personally, I choose to vote with my ideals and my conscience as opposed to voting for who I think will win.
The major party whose ideals are furthest from yours is very grateful to you and those like you, and hopes that you'll both continue and encourage those who think like you to do the same.



Ask an Obama supporter and they'll tell you a vote for a third party is a vote for McCain. Ask a McCain supporter and they'll tell you a vote for a third party is a vote for Obama. So which is it? :quirky



A vote for ANY third party, I don't care if it's the communist party, is a vote AGAINST the rigged system we currently have. Your claim that a third party isn't viable is baseless, especially when you consider the fact that America has gone through many different political parties in its history.

I just don't understand how you think it's easier to change the massive monsters the two parties have become. You somehow think it's easier to overhaul an entire political party, one you acknowledge that the masses don't even want changed, then it would be to simply create an appropriate party and vote for it. I don't think you realize the hold that special interests and the big money have onthe two parties. They really don't care about Joe Idiot on the street is trying to doto change them, they answer solely to the big money that keeps them in power.
 

unreconstructed1

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swillden wrote:
unreconstructed1 wrote:
personally, I choose to vote with my ideals and my conscience as opposed to voting for who I think will win.
The major party whose ideals are furthest from yours is very grateful to you and those like you, and hopes that you'll both continue and encourage those who think like you to do the same.
I'm so tired of hearing this same bull...

you wanna vote for a Republican just because he's a republican? go right ahead and be a good little party member, it's easier that way, since you don't have to think for yourself.

that's the same reason why McShame was labeled with anywhere from a C to an F by the NRA's gun rights grading system, until he got the Republicrat nomination.

think people like me helped Obama get into office? think again. it was the Republican party for nominating someone as incompetent and ridiculous as McCain.

IF the Republican party were to nominate someone who wasn't an idiot, and someone who stood up for constitutional values, then I would vote for him.

If the democratic party were to elect someone who wasn't an idiot, and someone who stood up for constitutional values, then I would vote for him.

don't blame me because so many other folks are too scared and closed minded to vote for someone who actually understands what the Republic is supposed to be.
 

Tess

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unreconstructed1 wrote:
while there are seneral pro-gun, pro freedom democrats, there are also many chicken s**t neo con warhawks, and fake conservative Republicans as well. the problem is, the wrong people are in control of both parties.
Where does that leave those who would be considered a liberal Republican or a conservative Democrat?

Like very pro-gun, pro-choice, pro-marriage of all types, pro civil union for heterosexual couples, anti-welfare, anti-illegal immigration, pro legal immigration, pro-business folks.

Where the republicans lost me was when they tried to define "conservative" their way.
 

unreconstructed1

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Tess wrote:
unreconstructed1 wrote:
while there are seneral pro-gun, pro freedom democrats, there are also many chicken s**t neo con warhawks, and fake conservative Republicans as well. the problem is, the wrong people are in control of both parties.
Where does that leave those who would be considered a liberal Republican or a conservative Democrat?
well, liberal Republicans are quite well off, considering the menage of liberals who were the top tier candidates for the GOP in least years election...

conservative democrats? you're pretty much out in the cold where you have been for 50? 60? years now...
 

AWDstylez

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Tess wrote:
unreconstructed1 wrote:
while there are seneral pro-gun, pro freedom democrats, there are also many chicken s**t neo con warhawks, and fake conservative Republicans as well. the problem is, the wrong people are in control of both parties.
Where does that leave those who would be considered a liberal Republican or a conservative Democrat?

Like very pro-gun, pro-choice, pro-marriage of all types, pro civil union for heterosexual couples, anti-welfare, anti-illegal immigration, pro legal immigration, pro-business folks.

Where the republicans lost me was when they tried to define "conservative" their way.



That exactly why it's pointless to define yourself in terms of the two parties. That's like saying: is a bird more of a cat or more of a dog?

Why do people feel the need to place themselves within a predefined specturm? That leads to exactly what the two party system was designed to do, make you compromise on issues. Be what you are and vote forwhobelieves in what you do, be it a Republican, Democrat, or any other party.Who cares where you fit in the bullshit, fabricated spectrum.
 

wrightme

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AWDstylez wrote:
Tess wrote:
unreconstructed1 wrote:
while there are seneral pro-gun, pro freedom democrats, there are also many chicken s**t neo con warhawks, and fake conservative Republicans as well. the problem is, the wrong people are in control of both parties.
Where does that leave those who would be considered a liberal Republican or a conservative Democrat?

Like very pro-gun, pro-choice, pro-marriage of all types, pro civil union for heterosexual couples, anti-welfare, anti-illegal immigration, pro legal immigration, pro-business folks.

Where the republicans lost me was when they tried to define "conservative" their way.



That exactly why it's pointless to define yourself in terms of the two parties. That's like saying: is a bird more of a cat or more of a dog?

Why do people feel the need to place themselves within a predefined specturm? That leads to exactly what the two party system was designed to do, make you compromise on issues. Be what you are and vote forwhobelieves in what you do, be it a Republican, Democrat, or any other party.Who cares where you fit in the bull@#$%, fabricated spectrum.
So you get to vote in the primaries. Register with the party with a strong candidate you dislike, and vote for his opponent. ;)
 

Tess

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wrightme wrote:
Why do people feel the need to place themselves within a predefined specturm? That leads to exactly what the two party system was designed to do, make you compromise on issues. Be what you are and vote forwhobelieves in what you do, be it a Republican, Democrat, or any other party.Who cares where you fit in the bull@#$%, fabricated spectrum.
So you get to vote in the primaries. Register with the party with a strong candidate you dislike, and vote for his opponent. ;)
May hold water some places. Here in Virginia, you do not need to be registered with the party to vote in their primaries.

Pisses off one side or the other from time to time, and that's why sometimes they'll hold caucuses or conventions instead of primaries.
 

unreconstructed1

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Doug Huffman wrote:
unreconstructed1 wrote:
menage of liberals
Surely you mean menagerie. Menage is roughly house and any American political 'house' is a house divided. Divide and conquer. Read Atlas Shrugged.
menage is used in a literary sense meaning "household", it also can be construed to mean "family", and "family unit; i.e. the members of a household.

the term I used, is the term I meant. I would also have used the term if referring to neo-cons, or many others.
 

AWDstylez

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wrightme wrote:
AWDstylez wrote:
Tess wrote:
unreconstructed1 wrote:
while there are seneral pro-gun, pro freedom democrats, there are also many chicken s**t neo con warhawks, and fake conservative Republicans as well. the problem is, the wrong people are in control of both parties.
Where does that leave those who would be considered a liberal Republican or a conservative Democrat?

Like very pro-gun, pro-choice, pro-marriage of all types, pro civil union for heterosexual couples, anti-welfare, anti-illegal immigration, pro legal immigration, pro-business folks.

Where the republicans lost me was when they tried to define "conservative" their way.



That exactly why it's pointless to define yourself in terms of the two parties. That's like saying: is a bird more of a cat or more of a dog?

Why do people feel the need to place themselves within a predefined specturm? That leads to exactly what the two party system was designed to do, make you compromise on issues. Be what you are and vote forwhobelieves in what you do, be it a Republican, Democrat, or any other party.Who cares where you fit in the bull@#$%, fabricated spectrum.
So you get to vote in the primaries. Register with the party with a strong candidate you dislike, and vote for his opponent. ;)



Yea all that trouble is really worth the one vote, in a contest typically won by hundreds of thousands.
 

swillden

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unreconstructed1 wrote:
you wanna vote for a Republican just because he's a republican? go right ahead and be a good little party member, it's easier that way, since you don't have to think for yourself.
You're saying *I'm* taking the easy way out?

Dude, you clearly have not read my posts.

Go spend some time reading about the Banzhaf and the Shapley-Shubik Power Indices. Learn the math. Understand exactly WHY third parties will never have significant power, and then come back and talk to me about not having to think for myself.

If you want to change things you CAN NOT do it by voting for third parties. It's the easy way out, sure, it makes you feel like you're actually protesting the status quo, while in actuality you're simply reinforcing it.

The only way to change things is to spend your own time and your own money participating in one of the two parties, and pushing its platform in the direction you want it to go.

As long as you and many like you refuse to get off your asses and DO something, rather than merely whining and casting feel-good votes for irrelevant politicians who will never do anything, this country will continue going downhill.
 

marshaul

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Your appeal to authority is irrelevant. How about you explain, rather than assuming nobody will bother to do the reading which demonstrates your position untenable? Oops, I just answered my own question! :shock:

For starters, neither of the "power indices" you've listed show anything of the kind.

Banzhaf shows that a certain kind of weighted voting system is unfair when some participants have few enough votes relative to other voters that their contribution is necessarily irrelevant. This would suggest that the electoral college is not fair to Montana, but it says next to nothing about its fairness to, say, the Libertarian Party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banzhaf_Power_Index

Shapley-Shubik, similarly, deals with comparative power of voters in a weighted system, but it says nothing about fairness to a given candidate, beyond unfairness generated by an individual elector having a disproportionate number of votes.

There is nothing mathematical which prevents an alternate party from winning in our current electoral system. The evolution of multiple parties over our country's history should demonstrate that. The current quagmire is purely a result of circumstance: that circumstance being a majority of the people thinking like swillden here.


Furthermore, many advocate reform of the electoral system, which would be a Good Thing. There is no motive for either of the two major parties to see such reform. Thereby, your "working against" the status quo is the one act that ensures its perpetuation.

You're just sad that we don't all vote for your party. Tough. Them's the breaks.
 

marshaul

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PLEASE tell me you are prepared to counter anything in that wikipedia article, since you clearly have found a specific error you'd like to correct, complete with sources to back it up?
 

MSC 45ACP

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I will use wiki if I'm looking for an opinion on a subject. I actually didn't even read that particular wiki article. I've read many wiki articles and have even made some corrections to some existing wiki articles.

My point is that wiki is written by anyone that wants to put in their $.02 worth in electrons for the world to see.

Some of it may be based on factual knowledge that is commonly accepted by everyone and some of it is complete and utter bullchips. I wouldn't use it as a sole-source document to prove any point.
 

marshaul

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MSC 45ACP wrote:
I will use wiki if I'm looking for an opinion on a subject.  I actually didn't even read that particular wiki article.  I've read many wiki articles and have even made some corrections to some existing wiki articles. 

My point is that wiki is written by anyone that wants to put in their $.02 worth in electrons for the world to see

Some of it may be based on factual knowledge that is commonly accepted by everyone and some of it is complete and utter bullchips.  I wouldn't use it as a sole-source document to prove any point. 
If I were writing a paper, I wouldn't either. However, I would hope my readers have the critical capacity to properly analyze any source, be it wiki or Britannica. With such readers, and in an informal context, wikipedia is a useful tool. Discounting it simply "because" is at least as ignorant as treating wiki (or any source, for that matter) blindly as gospel.

In this case, it should be clear that the article was written by someone who had some idea what they were talking about, and there is no reason for bias to affect the content.

Like I said, if you have a specific complaint, perhaps you'd care to demonstrate its validity. Barring that, wikipedia has a lot more to contribute on the subject of the Banzhaf power index than you, if you get my drift. ;)
 
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