query on appropriate OC etiquette

[solus]

visited the local Texas Roadhouse in town, packed this saturday evening with familys and holiday parties, and spied a gentleman OC'g what appeared to be a 'compact' 9m auto (bigger than a shield) in a nylon cheep holster.

there was no badge showing and the physical features and scruffy beard and long unwashed hair did not lend even a leap of faith they were LE!

now NC 14.269-3 specifically states, "...into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed."

now my etiquette query, should a knowledgeable citizen quietly and privately tell the OC'g citzen they are in apparent violation of the current statutes to preclude them from judicial action, or just watch from the sidelines?

several other patrons saw the individual's firearm and appeared to mutter amongst themselves but i didn't see anybody reach for their fones.

ipse

 

[Grapeshot]

Perhaps I would ask if I might speak to him and query him if he was aware of the NC laws.

He might have been from out of state and had not done due diligence in researching.

Were he to be detained by the nice LEO, such would be a reflection on all of us when the local media got hold of the story.

Rest assured that I would be very polite and avoid any confrontation.

 

[solus]

Perhaps I would ask if I might speak to him and query him if he was aware of the NC laws.

He might have been from out of state and had not done due diligence in researching.

Were he to be detained by the nice LEO, such would be a reflection on all of us when the local media got hold of the story.

Rest assured that I would be very polite and avoid any confrontation.

alas, as many have guessed, i am quite shy and reserved, and would never be confrontational, up close and personal, with someone carrying whom i was not previously acquainted with!

but good point, they go down, looks bad for everyone carrying...

ipse

 

[Grapeshot]

Would very much like to see NC rid itself of what is simply another gun free zone. There are ways of handling this. One is not disarmed at home for having a glass of wine, or prevented from buying alcohol at the local grocers because they are carrying.

Virginia may be unique. We may enjoy an adult beverage in a restaurant while OCing, but not if we CC - go figure.

That said, some people think that it is bad form to OC and imbibe - ymmv.

 

[Ken56]

The basic premise of alcohol and firearms don't mix (drinking while armed) doesn't apply then? This thread is about North Carolina law and carrying in places that serve alcohol, not Wisconsin or Virginia or Texas or Arizona and the possibility of approaching someone who may be in violation of the law to inform them as such. I probably would politely say something rather than see someone be arrested when I know the person was likely well intended but misinformed. Does the stark and silly differences between states make any sense at all anyway? I don't think so either but its their state so its their rules. When legislators have so many examples and hard stats on what works in other states I don't understand the resistance of some states relaxing laws like no firearms in places that serve alcohol or even the concealed carry only BS in some states.

 

[Grapeshot]

Would very much like to see NC rid itself of what is simply another gun free zone. There are ways of handling this. One is not disarmed at home for having a glass of wine, or prevented from buying alcohol at the local grocers because they are carrying.

Virginia may be unique. We may enjoy an adult beverage in a restaurant while OCing, but not if we CC - go figure.

That said, some people think that it is bad form to OC and imbibe - ymmv.

snipped-- This thread is about North Carolina law and carrying in places that serve alcohol, not Wisconsin or Virginia or Texas or Arizona and the possibility of approaching someone who may be in violation of the law to inform them as such.

This thread is not about NC law. It is about OCing where alcohol is sold for on site consumption. NC is mentioned as an example.

That doesn't preclude someone from mentioning other states. Doing so offfers a comparison and shows how various states have addressed this = pointing the way for other states.

 

[Statkowski]

This thread is about North Carolina law and carrying in places that serve alcohol, not Wisconsin or Virginia or Texas or Arizona and the possibility of approaching someone who may be in violation of the law to inform them as such.

If the thread was only about North Carolina law, then, I think, it should have been posted in the North Carolina section. Additionally, nowhere in the subject title was North Carolina mentioned.

In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, unlike the State of North Carolina, there is no law against carrying a firearm while in a restaurant where alcoholic beverages are served. Likewise, there is no law against carrying while in a bar or tavern. Nor is there any restriction on carrying and drinking. I suppose the Commonwealth figures people are responsible for their actions, not the inanimate objects that they may carry. Of course, common sense should apply (even if it's not common).

Different states, different laws; it's occasionally interesting to note the differences.

 

[solus]

ken56, Statkowski, et al., i mentally bantered with myself only putting my query in the NC sub thread but in the end was hoping that members would take the initiative to provide a two prong response, e.g., 'my xyz state allows firearms in establishments which serve adult beverages, but if i saw someone OC'g against statutes, i would blah blah blah.'

that was my premise for posting in the main forum 'why open carry' thread.

ipse

approximately 22 states currently allow firearms in establishment that sell and consume

 

[WalkingWolf]

We eat in places that serve alcohol, we have permission. I don't see it as a big deal, if Texas Roadhouse is not complaining why should we. Plus the gentlemen may have a CHP.

In case anyone is wondering it was not me, I never OC one of those dainty pistols, unless it is with a bigger one.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Would very much like to see NC rid itself of what is simply another gun free zone. There are ways of handling this. One is not disarmed at home for having a glass of wine, or prevented from buying alcohol at the local grocers because they are carrying.

Virginia may be unique. We may enjoy an adult beverage in a restaurant while OCing, but not if we CC - go figure.

That said, some people think that it is bad form to OC and imbibe - ymmv.

It is actually not a gun free zone, though asking permission is kinda a pain.

 

[color of law]

§ 14-269.3. Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry any gun, rifle, or pistol into any assembly where a fee has been charged for admission thereto, or into any establishment in which alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:

(1) A person exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14-269.

(2) The owner or lessee of the premises or business establishment.

(3) A person participating in the event, if the person is carrying a gun, rifle, or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event.

(4) A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee, or person or organization sponsoring the event.

(5) A person carrying a handgun if the person has a valid concealed handgun permit issued in accordance with Article 54B of this Chapter, has a concealed handgun permit considered valid under G.S. 14-415.24, or is exempt from obtaining a permit pursuant to G.S. 14-415.25. This subdivision shall not be construed to permit a person to carry a handgun on any premises where the person in legal possession or control of the premises has posted a conspicuous notice prohibiting the carrying of a concealed handgun on the premises in accordance with G.S. 14-415.11(c). (1977, c. 1016, s. 1; 1981, c. 412, s. 4; c. 747, s. 66; 1993, c. 539, s. 165; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2013-369, s. 3.)

Without more what did the guy do wrong????

I have known and seen greasy looking undercover cops openly carrying without any indication that they were cops.

 

[Wstar425]

I didn't comment initially because I thought it was about NC restaurants. So, it was I think, unclear to me anyhow.

We enjoy Texas Roadhouse in Wausau, Wi. No signs and have OCed a few visits, possibly without anyone noticing as dark at night. It's more of a casual family place with peanut husks on the floor, far from neat and tidy. Always leave stuffed and on the verge of sick feeling, but in a good way.

We also visit Olive Garden as we just do soup and salad for a lighter fare. They have a no gun slash sign,
But in small letters at the bottom it says no Conceal Carry without permit. I was OC, but had a license. Last time pretty sure hostess noticed, and seated us at a booth in the bar. No mention, tho have been seated in restaurant many times, with never an issue.

Ate at the Redeye downtown and a microbrewery for yuppies. I was the conversation of
the next table over, with no attempt to hide conversation. Heard everything from I was a cop, to we should call the cops, and much downright untruth about guns. No one came to talk to me. I ended up seated end of table strong side to main entrance and visible to all entering the room. Dressed in dress clothes (dockers) due to it being my Mother's 80th birthday dinner. Every server in the place noticed, I would say.

I get "made" for a cop a lot. short hair, always a collar shirt, sometimes a German Shepherd on a short leash, tho not in a restaurant. Sometimes I do OC with the dog and stop at a bar for a soda. Me, gun and dog all inside, usually seated at the bar.

Wisconsin can carry concealed in a bar but not consume, open carry with owner's permission. If I am OC and get SEATED in the bar area I consider that permission. We can actually drink while OC, I believe. I'm a teetotaler so I don't concern myself too much with that, only whether or not I can be there legally.

Most restaurants in Wisconsin better than fast food also serve alcohol. If I noticed someone OC in a restaurant I would keep an eye on them I guess. As people do me if they notices. I would not approach them or talk to them for just about any reason. I'm not security for the establishment, tho I would protect my group.

I'm not willing to die for my family, but I am willing to kill for them.

 

[solus]

well as WW pointed out, and thanks to CoL for posting the entire statute, if permission is granted by the person in charge of the property, then NC citizens may carry on premise where sales and consumption of adult beverages are sold. additionally, as pointed out by WW he has several local establishments where he has asked permission.

Wstar425, it is a risky presumption in this area to walk into establishments with sales and consumption while OC'g as we have a large group of citizens who are not supporters of OC activities.

CoL, as stated, my thrust was perhaps the individual wasn't aware, or from out of state where it is legal, and should something be nicely said to inform?

finally, w/o badge displayed, sorry the nice LE is nothing but a citizen!

ipse

 

[Brian D.]

Solus, you probably should have spoken up, as others have said it's very possible the gent was not from your state or perhaps poorly informed as to current law there. Do I have this part right?: If he had a concealed carry license, would it have been legal for him to just OC in there anyhow, if he just didn't feel like concealing?

 

[HPmatt]

In Texas we have a split on carrying in restaurants vs bars. In bars - defined by Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission as over 50% of sales from the bar - you can neither OC nor CC. In restaurants - < 50% sales, it is the owner's prerogative to disallow OC by posting. So in Texas, if you accidentally went to a Louisville KY based chain store that started in Indiana, the scruffy gentleman OCing would be fine & dandy to carry, unless the bartender has over-served him too many Heine Brothers Coffee Stouts.

 

[utbagpiper]

Perhaps I would ask if I might speak to him and query him if he was aware of the NC laws.

He might have been from out of state and had not done due diligence in researching.

Were he to be detained by the nice LEO, such would be a reflection on all of us when the local media got hold of the story.

Rest assured that I would be very polite and avoid any confrontation.

I think proper etiquette in the case of what appears to be a CCer having an unintentionally exposed firearm is less "conversation" and just a quick heads up, about like if someone's zipper was down. "Psst. Your protection is no longer concealed," handles that well.

For someone OCing (or otherwise carrying) where such is not generally legal, I should think a similar heads up would be a nice favor to both the individual and (as you note) the larger RKBA community.

If I saw what I thought was someone packing in the security line at the airport, for example, I'd mention something to him before he hit the metal detector and made the news. I expect cops would not be offended, LACs would appreciate avoiding the problems, and if a criminal or terrorist decides to start something a few moments sooner, I'm probably in a better position to respond than if I ignored it.

Charles

 

[utbagpiper]

This thread is not about NC law. It is about OCing where alcohol is sold for on site consumption. NC is mentioned as an example.

That doesn't preclude someone from mentioning other states. Doing so offfers a comparison and shows how various states have addressed this = pointing the way for other states.

In that case I will point out that Utah law does not impose any prohibition on carrying due to the sale or even personal imbibing of alcohol. Utah law prohibits carrying while intoxicated or under the influence of drugs such that one is not safe to drive a car (0.08% BAC or unable to safely drive a car).

Being a T-totaler I can't claim any expertise in carrying while imbibing. I know drinkers who exercise an abundance of caution and don't drink at all while carrying and don't carry if they are going to or have been drinking. I can't fault them.

As an analogy, I have co workers who will not drink a drop while on company travel if they have to drive. If dinner is within walking distance of the hotel, or they have a non-drinking DD, they will have a couple of drink with dinner and would most certainly still be legal to drive. But their thinking is, "If I'm in a crash for any reason while on company travel, I don't want a drop in my system. It just isn't worth it." Some gun carriers use similar rational while carrying. "If for any reason I have to use the gun, I don't want any question at all about alcohol."

OTOH, I don't personally have any problem with a mature adult having a drink or two while carrying. Any number of things can reduce our personal performance from its peak including illness, being tired, emotional stresses, etc. I don't leave the gun home over these common inhibitors unless/until they reach a point where I don't believe I'm safe carrying. And at that point, I really should not be driving either. So I don't see a problem with someone having a drink or two and carrying with whatever minimal level of impairment might come from a BAC of 0.05% for someone accustomed to alcohol.

Of course, if there are any pinko-commie, tree-hugging, urbanites who love to raise taxes, hate guns, or are small minded religious bigots reading this, the above is all moot since we all know you can't get a drink in Utah anyway, the State is filled with wild Indians and half crazed rednecks, and so visiting Utah is a bad idea, moving here is probably all but fatal with a very miserable existence until the sweet release of death.

Additionally, Utah law gives no special force to gun ban policies at private businesses. The rare restaurant, club, or bar that is hostile to guns can put up signs but they have no legal effect. They can ask someone to leave, and at that point there might be a trespassing matter. Even there Utah's commercial trespass law sets a higher bar for conviction than for simple trespass on residential private property. Good etiquette pretty much demands that one leave when asked. Civil disobedience gets rather dicey while armed. But, if nobody notices the gun for whatever reason, and doesn't ask the customer to leave, he is golden.

I am not aware of a single eating or drinking establishment in Utah that is hostile to RKBA. A couple of sports arenas are posted, one uses metal detectors sometimes. A couple of movie theaters used to be posted, I'm not sure they still are. Hospitals are all posted, but with the exception of the secure area of mental health facilities (which must provide storage), no violation of law to ignore the signs.

Charles

 

[JoeSparky]

Snip... Hospitals are all posted, but with the exception of the secure area of mental health facilities (which must provide storage), no violation of law to ignore the signs.

Charles

I am not sure ALL hospitals are posted. In fact, except for the specific mental health facilities (if any) at the UNIVERSITY OF UTAH hosp it would be a violation of Utah State law to post or enforce ANY gun control signs or policies.

 

[utbagpiper]

I am not sure ALL hospitals are posted. In fact, except for the specific mental health facilities (if any) at the UNIVERSITY OF UTAH hosp it would be a violation of Utah State law to post or enforce ANY gun control signs or policies.

So far as I've noticed, all IHC hospitals are posted. I'll need to check on some of the InstaCares next time I'm out and about.

Also, I'm not aware of any law in Utah that makes posting a no gun sign a crime.

State law denies most government entities the power to promulgate, maintain, or enforce most anti-gun laws. And we talk about "no gun" signs at government run campgrounds or trails being "illegal" under State law. I'm not sure that is true. Trying to actually enforce a no-gun policy as conveyed by the signs would be illegal. But I don't know that the signs themselves are actually illegal.

And with the possible exception of the University of Utah hospital, all other hospitals in Utah are privately owned, not government run. So they don't even run afoul of Utah's State Preemption law.

In a related vein, I note that I think the UoU hospital and PCMC are both on the campus of the UoU and so included in Utah's State Gun Free School zone such that a permit to carry (any permit issued in the nation in this case) is generally required to legally posses a gun at those two hospitals.

Charles

 

[JoeSparky]

ALL IHC (Intermountain Healthcare) facilities are posted as far as I know---- these are ALL privately owned and any signage can be legally ignored--- threat of trespassing if one refuses to leave when asked. An employee of the company runs the risk of termination (loss of employment) if they ignore company policy.

Public Hospitals in Utah, U of U hospital being the ONLY one I am aware of are prohibited by law to create or enforce ANY gun prohibition policy unless specifically authorized by the state legislature. In my mind, if the U of U were to post signage in excess of what they are allowed (mental facilities ONLY where they must provide storage for checked firearms) then that would be a violation of the law. Agree, the law does NOT say they CAN'T post in excess of what there limits are, but to do so WOULD be a violation of what they are ALLOWED by law to do or ENFORCE.

And back closer to thread topic---- NOTHING in Utah law would prevent one of lawful age to sit at the counter of a bar or club and toss a drink or two back while openly carrying a firearm or even conceal if one has been issued a permit (provided they don't exceed the 0.08% BAC limit).