Lori Haas lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

[Citizen]

FROM WIKIPEDIA:
Cho, a senior English major at Virginia Tech, had previously been diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder. During much of his middle school and high school years, he received therapy and special education support. After graduating from high school, Cho enrolled at Virginia Tech. Because of federal privacy laws, Virginia Tech was unaware of Cho's previous diagnosis or the accommodations he had been granted at school. In 2005, Cho was accused of stalking two female students. After an investigation, a Virginia special justice declared Cho mentally ill and ordered him to attend treatment.[4] Lucinda Roy, a professor and former chairwoman of the English department, had also asked Cho to seek counseling.[5] Cho's mother also turned to her church for help.[6]
The massacre prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes that had previously allowed Cho, an individual adjudicated as mentally unsound, to purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). It also led to passage of the first major federal gun control measure in more than 13 years. The law strengthening the NICS was signed by President George W. Bush on January 5, 2008.[11]

This is what I was referring to about Cho. If he had been "in the system", he wouldn't have been able to legally purchase a gun. If anyone has inferred that I am a proponent of needing a psych eval to purchase a gun, far from it. About the only thing I agree with is the instant background check. Other than that, the 2nd Amendment says it all.
As for the relevant comment, I was referring to the VA situation, which is AFU, wasn't the same thing as the Cho situation. I wholeheartedly and strenuously disagree with the VA being the arbiter of whether or not a veteran can or can't have a gun.
I hope I have cleared up what I was trying to say and apologize for any confusion or offense. None was intended.

Anybody else notice the contradiction? He received therapy "during much of his middle school and high school years." It didn't work.

A number of mass killers were recently receiving therapy or on psychiatric medication--which didn't prevent the killings.

 

[wylde007]

A number of mass killers were recently receiving therapy or on psychiatric medication--which didn't prevent the killings.

Just a little more treatment and all of this could have been prevented.

Yep.

 

[Anonymouse]

Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

Anybody else notice the contradiction? He received therapy "during much of his middle school and high school years." It didn't work.

A number of mass killers were recently receiving therapy or on psychiatric medication--which didn't prevent the killings.

Therapy isn't some magic pill. Heck, half the time meds, and therapy do absolutely nothing. Or you have to consistently adjust or change them. But meds and therapy are better then not having either.

Another thing people forget is that mental illness is not curable and it progresses. If the treatment is successful that just means it halts or slows the progression.

The only real way to prevent the killings is... Wait there is no real way other then everyone carrying. Then you could possibly stop them before they kill anyone or at least mitigate the damage.

Banning the mentally ill from having guns outright is not the solution though. Many have crisis but recover as they age. Many are only a danger to themselves.


Tap'n while driving...

 

[ncwabbit]

First, let’s state you are and have been in good mental health throughout your life, a good provider to your family, and citizen of your society…
1) Then you unexpectedly lose a loved one …you pick… your child, partner or?
2) You’ve also lost your job and all the ramifications associated w/loss of earnings.
3) You’ve started to self medicate – you pick… alcohol or marijuana or other illicit substance
4) Now you’ve gotten into judicial trouble…

Your world, as you know it, is crashing about you as you become more and more depressed and despondent, possibly even w/suicidal ideations or even attempts.

A friend intervenes and you are now in psychotherapy to assist you through these troubling times you are experiencing…mental health providers providing treatment should report your situation to who? and why?

Most individual’s mental health issues are situational and with the right psychotherapy and possibly the judicious use of psychotropic medicine(s) from properly trained professional(s), individuals overcome and regain their grounding to continue functioning within our society and should w/out the stigma they were overwhelmed w/life’s stressors.

Anonymouse: quote: Another thing people forget is that mental illness is not curable and it progresses. If the treatment is successful that just means it halts or slows the progression. Unquote I challenge that perception as thousands of individuals across our society are assisted through their crisises through the assistance from mental health professionals.

Now for the other posters who want the mental health professional to notify someone in authority when someone in treatment articulates a threat during their treatment sessions. First and foremost the client’s confidentiality is protected by law and professional ethics. Now the majority of the states have statutes containing a provision of when and who to notify in case appropriate narrowly focused criteria are met and the mental health professional believes an active threat is imminent. Most do notify!!

American’s populace is the most legally doped up nation in the world and according to a medscape report (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/753789):

“1 in 5 adult Americans took at least 1 psychiatric medication in 2010. In women, the statistic was 1 in 4.by almost three times. Antidepressants were the most commonly used medications, with more than 20% of women receiving them. Antianxiolytics were also widely used by women, at almost twice the rate of men. The greatest use was in women aged 45 to 65 years, 11% of whom were taking an antianxiety medication in 2010.”

“Psychotropic medication use was also increased in children, although antidepressant use in children dropped substantially, a trend that was largely attributed to 2004 warnings issued by the US Food and Drug Administration about an increased risk for suicidal ideation. The analysis also showed a drop in ADHD medication use in children since 2005. However, the number of children receiving atypical antipsychotics doubled from 2001 to 2010, a phenomenon Dr. Muzina said should raise a red flag.”

“In addition to more than tripling their use of ADHD medications since 2001, the 20- to 44-year-old group also saw significant spikes in their use of atypical antipsychotics (248%), and their use of antianxiety treatments was up nearly 30%. “

why are the parents allowing their children to be doped up...because the caregiver is also over stressed and doped up dealing w/life:

wabbit

PS do not lay the blame for mass killings at the feet of those in the mental health field...lets ask the caregivers why they are doped up and allowing their children to be in the same state!!

 

[Anonymouse]

Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

I challenge that perception as thousands of individuals across our society are assisted through their crisises through the assistance from mental health professionals.

Let's be clear.

I don't consider situational depression to be mental illness anymore than having a precancerous spot on your skin to be the end of the world. Call it, instead, long term grief or sadness.

Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, dysrythmia, other similar serious illnesses and the hoard of personality disorders do NOT go away and are not cured.

At best they are managed. You mentioned crisis. Here is the difference between a healthy person and a mentally ill person. A healthy person may have one or even a few crises in their life. A mentally ill person goes from crisis to crisis.

I'm sure you know someone with a serious mental illness. I'll bet you dollars to donuts they will say they are hanging on. Kinda like alcoholics do. Sure you get better at managing but lose that medicine and bam.

No as to your assertion that people are over medicated? I agree completely. Blame that on general practitioners. How many if those kids actually see psychs (iatrists and ologists)? Most kids I've seen see their family doctor that prescribed the medicine. That's like seeing a public defender to work your bankruptcy case...


Some people may not even need medicine. Hell, some people beat cancer without chemo. Shrug, it happens. Some alcoholics don't need AA. Most do though...

This is why most crimes committed by mentally ill people almost invariably happen when they are either not on meds/in therapy or when they stopped taking them when they feel better. This is extremely common with bipolar and schizophrenia. You take the meds, feel better, think "I'm managing this just fine," stop the meds and then immediately decompensate.

It's extremely common... I know lol...

Tap'n while driving...

 

[ncwabbit]

unfortunately, your initial broad stroke definition of mental illness leads those who lack the appropriate background to believe all individuals who have sought psychotherapy for whatever reason could be a threat to society...as you just pointed out...there are a myriad of classifications defining mental illnesses with some having significant long term treatment ramifications as well as some readily managed...

and as it appears you know...those caregivers who assist their loved ones combating serious mental illness need to be hypervigilant to assure the psychotropics are being taken as prescribed!! so do we hold the caregiver responsible for the mass killings of Columbine, Va Tech, or Aurora?

wabbit

 

[Citizen]

SNIP Therapy isn't some magic pill. Heck, half the time meds, and therapy do absolutely nothing. Or you have to consistently adjust or change them. But meds and therapy are better then not having either.

Another thing people forget is that mental illness is not curable and it progresses. If the treatment is successful that just means it halts or slows the progression.

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

Regarding mental illness being incurable, says who? The psych's of course. The same profession who took on the role to solve it.

Now, this same profession for many years asserted that IQ can't be changed. But, they never said why. Oh, they said it was established at birth, etc. But, never explained exactly why--what the mechanism was, what the limiting factors were exactly. Then, just within the last few months I came across an article by a psych who recently did some testing and discovered IQ does change. Uh-huh. About sixty or seventy years too late, but I guess late is better than never.

Don't hold your breath waiting for an exact explanation of why mental illness can't be cured. It might be another sixty or seventy years. Back in the 1990's, one of the heads of the National Institute for Mental Health expressly told a congressional hearing that they didn't know the cause of mental illness. Hmmmm. Well, if they don't know the cause, then how on earth are they ever going to solve it. And, why are they spending vast amounts of time and energy "treating" it? Anybody see a similarity between that approach and witch doctors? Or, demonic exorcism? As in, no idea what they're doing?

It gets worse. For many years serotonin levels were the asserted cause of depression. Vast numbers of people were prescribed all kinds of anti-depressants. Here's the catch. There is no test for serotonin levels.

I disagree that meds or therapy are better than nothing. Which of the popular 1970's psych drugs was abandoned (after it had been foisted on an unsuspecting population) because it was found to increase violence? Valium? I forget which it was. Its getting so bad that anti-depressants had their black box warnings enhanced by congress, say in the last 2-3 years. I have no information that therapy stirring up a bunch of unpleasant emotions and impulses, and leaving them unresolved is better than nothing.

 

[Citizen]

unfortunately, your initial broad stroke definition of mental illness leads those who lack the appropriate background to believe all individuals who have sought psychotherapy for whatever reason could be a threat to society...as you just pointed out...there are a myriad of classifications defining mental illnesses with some having significant long term treatment ramifications as well as some readily managed...

and as it appears you know...those caregivers who assist their loved ones combating serious mental illness need to be hypervigilant to assure the psychotropics are being taken as prescribed!! so do we hold the caregiver responsible for the mass killings of Columbine, Va Tech, or Aurora?

wabbit

Nobody is saying blame the care-givers.

I blame first the killers.

I separately blame the psuedo-scientists who claim expert authority for misleading the care-givers.

 

[Anonymouse]

Re: Lori Hass lies again, gets caught by Richmond Times Dispatch editors.

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

Regarding mental illness being incurable, says who? The psych's of course. The same profession who took on the role to solve it.

Nah, is not the psychs saying it.

It the years of studies, the experiences of nurses and doctors, the families with members suffering and of course those of us with the illnesses.

Let's focus on the two most common, and also most violent illnesses, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

Schizophrenia absolutely must be medicated. There are very few known cases of people managing without meds. One is John Nash, the economist. Though he was on and off meds. Most without meds wither suffer homelessness and hard lives. Those that aren't violent suffer silently those that are kill people or themselves. They an estimated 10% suicide rate.

As for bipolar disorder. There is a 15% suicide rate WITH treatment and the various medical sources have estimates of up to a 75% suicide rate among untreated beepers.

Both diseases progress organically without treatment. This is not the opinion of psych but evidence based. Those that survive to later years and then get treatment find that chemical interventions are much less effective.

This is where we get in trouble. For decades little was known of mental illnesses. Its the same now. The only difference is that people now think they know a bit more but they really don't. They know what's on TV shows. They know that the news classified Cho as an evil person.

I suggest you do some research on mental illness. Start with those two I mentioned. You'd be surprised.

That's why this is a tragedy. Everyone hates Cho. Why? He was ill. Many times need people to step in and stop mentally ill people from hurting themselves or others. Many times they cannot control themselves. When they fail they of course blame the ill person and start programs to watch ALL ill people. Like preventing anyone ever committed from owning guns. What if you were committed in your teens for being clinically depressed and attempting suicide repeatedly and have managed for the last 40 years???

http://www.cdc.gov/mentalhealth/basics/burden.htm

Nothing irks me more than those that because of some paranoid delusion "distrust" doctors and don't get treatment. From those moronic mothers that insist vaccines cause autism to the people that don't get mental health help because they aren't crazy and psychiatry is a scam. Its nonsensical.



Tap'n while driving...

 

[roscoe13]

Can someone fix the spelling in the title?

Roscoe

 

[Grapeshot]

Can someone fix the spelling in the title?

Roscoe

Done.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP I suggest you do some research on mental illness. Start with those two I mentioned. You'd be surprised.

I'm not talking about mental illness. I'm talking about the quack professions that pretend to offer solutions that cost tons of money while not actually curing anything.

Since when was an organic cause for schizophrenia or manic-depressive identified? If that were true, the whole world would have been told about it, and researchers would be in hot pursuit of a cure. And, I don't mean a psuedo-scientific correlation between two phenomena that is stretched into cause and effect. Not suppositions and inferences built on air, neither. Who discovered a provable organic cause for either of those, what is that exact organic cause?

 

[Anonymouse]

I'm not talking about mental illness. I'm talking about the quack professions that pretend to offer solutions that cost tons of money while not actually curing anything.

Since when was an organic cause for schizophrenia or manic-depressive identified? If that were true, the whole world would have been told about it, and researchers would be in hot pursuit of a cure. And, I don't mean a psuedo-scientific correlation between two phenomena that is stretched into cause and effect. Not suppositions and inferences built on air, neither. Who discovered a provable organic cause for either of those, what is that exact organic cause?

I didn't say they identified an organic cause. I said it progresses organically.

And the progression is very predictable.

Its not quackery and its not 1930 either. Very effective modalities exist to treat mental illnesses but not everyone is treatable.

Many are a danger to themselves and others and short of everyone packing you agent going to be able to do anything about it. And blaming these people is as smart as blaming a rabid dog.

Shrug...

Just make sure you see a doctor and don't rely on teachers, school counselors, therapists or psychologists for a diagnosis they aren't even legally supposed to give.

Psychiatrists for the diagnosis and meds and psychologist for the various therapies. I prefer the drug/CBT combo myself but everyone is different. It doesn't even start with drugs. It starts with behavioral interventions first though drugs do assist in the diagnosis. Giving drugs first is usually bad...

Tap'n while driving...

 

[Citizen]

I didn't say they identified an organic cause. I said it progresses organically.

And the progression is very predictable.

Its not quackery and its not 1930 either. Very effective modalities exist to treat mental illnesses but not everyone is treatable.

Many are a danger to themselves and others and short of everyone packing you agent going to be able to do anything about it. And blaming these people is as smart as blaming a rabid dog.

Shrug...

Tap'n while driving...

Shrug?

How can it progress organically if it is not organic? And, how can it be concluded that it progresses organically if an organic cause is not identified?

And, treating is not curing. Somehow this industry that can't cure anything has spread its treatments far and wide, even into areas that are clearly just a part of life or part of growing up. And, how did these various compounds that are used to treat things become concluded to be correct if the organic cause isn't known? Just because a compound drives a person into a bit of a fog or wooden state of mind doesn't mean much as to effectiveness. Lobotomies were "effective". Alcohol and marihuanna are "effective".

And, while we're on the subject, I would like to see all the studies that carefully examined the brain chemistry of these long-term patients to verify there was no long term damage.



This is not just some abstract conversation. I have personal experience with this. I'll give you one. When I was in my twenties, I met an attactive young woman in DC. Total stranger. I had a chance to strike up a conversation. It quickly became apparent something was bothering her. I guessed that it had something to do with an existing boyfriend (drat!). So, I asked about it. Flood of tears! She broke down crying right in public. Not a few sniffles. Bwa-bwa, hunched forward crying! It developed that she had a problem with her mother and separate problem with a bit of a verbally abusive boyfriend. And, she was on anti-depressants and seeing a psych.

It only takes a moment of thinking to realize that the drugs and psych treatment did nothing. All the emotional grief associated with her problems was still there, right under the surface waiting for little ol' me to accidentally ask the wrong question. So, the drugs and psych treatment didn't solve her mental and emotional state. All they did was cover it up. While lining the pockets of psychs and big pharma, of course.

 

[Anonymouse]

Shrug?

How can it progress organically if it is not organic? And, how can it be concluded that it progresses organically if an organic cause is not identified?

Not knowing the cause is not the same as not knowing it is organic. Unless you are also claiming Alzheimer's is not organic.

And, treating is not curing. Somehow this industry that can't cure anything has spread its treatments far and wide, even into areas that are clearly just a part of life or part of growing up.

There are no cures. Unless of course you've hidden one at home and are holding out. In that case present it to the world.

However, the claim that there is a cure but big pharma is holding out is mere paranoia and speculation.

And, how did these various compounds that are used to treat things become concluded to be correct if the organic cause isn't known? Just because a compound drives a person into a bit of a fog or wooden state of mind doesn't mean much as to effectiveness. Lobotomies were "effective". Alcohol and marihuanna are "effective".

Probably the same way aspirin was discovered. Or chemo, or beta blockers or most surgeries. Eperimentation.

On a side note, alcohol and marijuana aggravate many mental illnesses. Self medication tends to fail badly.

And lobotomies are effective. But you don't just want to incapacitate a person. Some old therapies are the in use now though. ECT has shown to be quite effective in depression cases that don't respond to meds.

And, while we're on the subject, I would like to see all the studies that carefully examined the brain chemistry of these long-term patients to verify there was no long term damage.

I'd like to see them too. For every drug besides ASA.

This is not just some abstract conversation. I have personal experience with this. I'll give you one. When I was in my twenties, I met an attactive young woman in DC. Total stranger. I had a chance to strike up a conversation. It quickly became apparent something was bothering her. I guessed that it had something to do with an existing boyfriend (drat!). So, I asked about it. Flood of tears! She broke down crying right in public. Not a few sniffles. Bwa-bwa, hunched forward crying! It developed that she had a problem with her mother and separate problem with a bit of a verbally abusive boyfriend. And, she was on anti-depressants and seeing a psych.

How nice that you know someone...

1) Not everyone responds to meds.
2) Not every med is effective for every person.

I know because out of many of the Mao inhibitors, ssri's and snri's only effexor has helped me. Took years to get the right dose. As far as lithium goes, the dose is change almost monthly...

It only takes a moment of thinking to realize that the drugs and psych treatment did nothing. All the emotional grief associated with her problems was still there, right under the surface waiting for little ol' me to accidentally ask the wrong question. So, the drugs and psych treatment didn't solve her mental and emotional state. All they did was cover it up. While lining the pockets of psychs and big pharma, of course.

Nice anecdote. Now go to a psych hospital and ask a doctor or a patient.

What do you know about his girl? She was seeing a psychiatrist? Most people don't even know the difference between the various practitioners of any medicine much less the psychiatric field.

You assume meds always help. The meds don't stop or cure the disease, they manage it most times. The end goal of all psychiatry is successful management. There is no cure. Why do you think alcoholics are that way for life? Visit a nursing home. Were I work we have plenty of elderly that are 90+ that lose their **** if they don't have their psych meds managed properly.

Yes, some doctors will just give you meds. I have a doc right now that will give me adderall if I just ask because I self medicated for years. It failed magnificently btw. My psych won't give me jack **** without hella tests and consultation with my psychologist. Hell, there are docs that will give you diet pills if you tell them you feel fat without even a cursory exam. That's the doctor, not the system or big pharma.

Buyer beware...

I gotta say, your paranoia is showing...

Coming from me that's not exactly good.

Tap'n while driving...

 

[Grapeshot]

--snip--
This is not just some abstract conversation. I have personal experience with this. I'll give you one. When I was in my twenties, I met an attactive young woman in DC. Total stranger. I had a chance to strike up a conversation. It quickly became apparent something was bothering her. I guessed that it had something to do with an existing boyfriend (drat!). So, I asked about it. Flood of tears! She broke down crying right in public. Not a few sniffles. Bwa-bwa, hunched forward crying! It developed that she had a problem with her mother and separate problem with a bit of a verbally abusive boyfriend. And, she was on anti-depressants and seeing a psych.

It only takes a moment of thinking to realize that the drugs and psych treatment did nothing. All the emotional grief associated with her problems was still there, right under the surface waiting for little ol' me to accidentally ask the wrong question. So, the drugs and psych treatment didn't solve her mental and emotional state. All they did was cover it up. While lining the pockets of psychs and big pharma, of course.

How did that make you feel Mr. Citizen? Did it make you feel angry?

Time's up, but you can call me any time. I'm here to help you.

 

[ncwabbit]

snip...
Shrug...

Just make sure you see a doctor and don't rely on teachers, school counselors, therapists or psychologists for a diagnosis they aren't even legally supposed to give.

Psychiatrists for the diagnosis and meds and psychologist for the various therapies. I prefer the drug/CBT combo myself but everyone is different. It doesn't even start with drugs. It starts with behavioral interventions first though drugs do assist in the diagnosis. Giving drugs first is usually bad...

let's see you wish the fine membership they should go see their family GP who is used to treating sniffles, mundane and recurring ailments, when someone is complaining of mental health issues, have the GP reach for the promo drugs who were given to the office by the pharmacy rep and then state: take these and you should be feeling better in a couple of weeks. that is what you are advocating?

and lets understand the MDs training above med school to be labeled psychiatrist: extra rotations during residency?

and can you point cite a statutory authority, besides your apparent biased point of view, where psychotherapists and psychologists are not legally authorized to make diagnosises?

really?

wabbit

ps: grape the rhetoric goes something like this...
sorry your time is up but please schedule something for next week and we will continue to discuss your xyz issues.

 

[roscoe13]

Boy, I'm so glad this thread has stayed on-topic and hasn't degenerated into a pi$$ing contest. :banghead::banghead:

Roscoe

 

[peter nap]

Boy, I'm so glad this thread has stayed on-topic and hasn't degenerated into a pi$$ing contest. :banghead::banghead:

Roscoe

Me Too:lol:
The old cures are still the only proven ones!

 

[Wolf_shadow]

Me Too:lol:
The old cures are still the only proven ones!

Doctor Nap I like your Script.