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Any direct experience with liability after the use of a defensive firearm in Va?

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
There's a discussion going on about the need for some kind of insurance in case you get sued from having to defend yourself.

Some say that the specific policies, like that from CCW Safe are the way to go, and that an Umbrella policy may have an 'Intentional Exclusion' clause, which prevents you from using it, because you more-or-less intentionally shot the bad guy trying to kill your child/spouse/loved one.

Now, I think most insurance agents belong at the bottom of the sea with most lawyers, Mr Hawes being an exception, but there should be some way to be SURE of your coverage, to KNOW what actually happens in Virginia (your own state) if you are CLEAN and shoot someone and are not prosecuted.

As most know, and IANAL, self-defense must be RULED to be the case so you can use it as an affirmative defense against the DEFAULT charge of murder should you 'kill' some mofo who needed killin', and by that humor I mean just 'stopped', not ded, necessarily, FYI.

The law is so complicated, I just wondered if anyone had any EXPERIENCE they could share that we could learn what is required, how Va law is set up and if there's a need to be concerned. That is concerned to the point of getting some kind of specific SD-related policy like CCW Safe, which is reportedly $129 a year, and gives you quite a bit. My online friends say it gets good reviews, covers you in all 50 states, has $250k bail coverage and provides expert witnesses. Only caveat, (sorry OC-only guys) you must have a valid permit in your home state.

Thanks for any help here. I'm not SUPER worried but I want to be clear what the state of affairs is in Virginia, at least.

TIA
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
maverick9, there was a massive discussion regarding this subject matter which USER weighed in and i believe the conversation ended shortly afterwards.

i will attempt to seek out the thread...

ah 2015: http://vb.opencarry.org/forums/show...-Insurance-Legal-Services&highlight=insurance

older 2014: minimal conversation but read first post interesting cites ~ http://vb.opencarry.org/forums/show...mp-Self-Defense-Insurance&highlight=insurance

hope that helps a bit to keep us from repeating ourselves...

ipse
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
maverick9, there was a massive discussion regarding this subject matter which USER weighed in and i believe the conversation ended shortly afterwards.

i will attempt to seek out the thread...

ah 2015: http://vb.opencarry.org/forums/show...-Insurance-Legal-Services&highlight=insurance

older 2014: minimal conversation but read first post interesting cites ~ http://vb.opencarry.org/forums/show...mp-Self-Defense-Insurance&highlight=insurance

hope that helps a bit to keep us from repeating ourselves...

ipse

OK, thanks my good man.
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
So what I did was go to User's site (Daniel L. Hawes) and print out his note to cops and fill it in and print it. It will be my 'goto' in the extremely rare event that I need legal assistance.

My goal is to get someone ELSE to shoot the badguys! Maybe even each other. Also, not to be there, to anticipate trouble and sidestep it. So far, many peaceful years on the Planet Earth.

I might add I was reading in the paper, perhaps the Washington Post how much of an increase in danger there was on the roads and highways, mainly due to not Teenagers, the typical group that are not yet very safe drivers but 'Millenials'.

Ah, here you go:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...da9086-f2e4-11e6-8d72-263470bf0401_story.html

Stay safe out there as Skid R.i.P. used to say. Head on a swivel, drive defensively. The biggest danger is other drivers, not BGs with guns, IMO.

Thanks again to all who posted helpful links!
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
RSMo 563.074. Justification as an absolute defense, when.

1. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 563.016, a person who uses force as described in sections 563.031, 563.041, 563.046, 563.051, 563.056, and 563.061 is justified in using such force and such fact shall be an absolute defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability.


2. The court shall award attorney's fees, court costs, and all reasonable expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant has an absolute defense as provided in subsection 1 of this section.
Missouri seems to have addressed this back in 2007.
 

user

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,516
Location
Northern Piedmont
I've got a couple of references to membership plans of which I have agreed to be an affiliated attorney on my website: Armed Citizens Legal Defense and United States Concealed Carry Association. I don't recommend any others.

In particular, the OP mentioned "CCW Safe", which states on their website:
CCW Safe is a legal service membership plan that was designed for CCW permit/license holders and law enforcement officers, both active and retired. We are not an insurance plan, we are a legal defense service plan.

Also, Ken Cuccinelli began a "law firm" for the same purpose and organized in a similar way. It now goes by the name, "United Self Defense Law, PLLC".

Under Virginia law, both of these are "prepaid legal services plans", that is a form of insurance, no matter what they say or what language they use to dress it up in, they are required to be registered with the state and neither of them is, and they are operating illegally, which I put down to ignorance of the law rather than malicious intent. But that's not a good quality in a law firm, which you would expect to have researched what they're doing and how to do it properly before they got started. In particular, they misuse the word, "retainer", in a way that I think violates Virginia's ethical rules. Payment of a true retainer doesn't actually buy you anything except the right to say so-and-so's your attorney and to "conflict him out" with respect to anyone who wants to sue you. It's generally paid on a periodic basis and is earned when paid. Prepaid legal fees are either insurance premiums on a qualified prepaid legal services plan or an advance against costs and fees. So I wouldn't trust either of these as far as I could throw them.

But here's the problem with the "good" ones: they retain a lot of discretion about whether and when to pay up. Just because you're a member doesn't mean they have to do anything to help you, and if for some reason they decide they don't like you or your case, they pretty much don't. If you can afford it, I think either of the two I participate in would be a good thing, sort of like having a .32ACP Kel-Tec in your back pocket - good backup and it's better than nothing.

I strongly recommend having six to ten thousand dollars in liquid assets that you or someone you trust can get to quickly in case of emergency - whether your own sudden need for dentistry or to defend against a criminal charge and get you out of jail - that's what's going to get you the flexibility and quick ability to act that you need. Have an emergency fund; that's your best insurance.

Oh, and as already observed, download the PDF and print off a few copies of my "letter to law enforcement". If you're closer to the Southwestern corner, get in touch with John Pierce in Bristol, or to Hampton Roads, call Robert Herron in Va. Beach.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
appreciate the update user...

now if you were a bit closer...

ipse
 
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