Fallguy
Regular Member
Exceptions .... must be proved by the state that you do not meet one ... not RAS to stop you to make this determination. IMO
In TN having a permit is actually a "defense" and not an "exception"
Exceptions .... must be proved by the state that you do not meet one ... not RAS to stop you to make this determination. IMO
I don't believe you are correct, sir. The officer is not legally obligated to consider each and every facet that may prove conduct is innocent. He merely has to observe conduct that a reasonable man would consider criminal.
While a person may have the most innocent of reasons to be running down the road while holding a bag from which there is a stream of orange smoke while the police are responding to a silent bank robbery call; the police are not required to consider that you always keep your money in bags and that your 5-year old just happened to sneak a smoke bomb into it that morning.
They have observed conduct consistent with an illegal act and have authority to investigate it. If you have no explanation as to why you have a bag full of smoking orange money, they aren't required to check the serial number of each bill to see if it was in the bank's possession mere minutes earlier. If you refuse (as is your right) to say anything, they have probable cause to make an arrest. It will easily be proven or disproven in court and since you've "not been harmed" there's no recovery to be made.
It's illegal to exceed the speed limit, but if you can prove necessity (such as being chased by a T-rex or to escape dozens of thug motorcyclists) then you won't be penalized.
In TN you must have a HCP (handgun carry permit) to carry. The mode of carry seems not to matter.
Cop sees gun, you are breaking the law. A cop would be a idiot to not detain you, only long enough to check for a HCP.
Now, how many cops actually obey the law and detain every TN citizen they witness carrying a gun? How many cops detain a TN citizen they witness with a gun shaped bulge? How many cops?
I'd say about 95% of them do. It all depends on the circumstances so I try to ask OC folks not to jump the gun (no pun intended) when there's LEO interaction and you get disarmed. There are BOLOs sent out daily that can be ambiguous in nature sometimes so an officer may be acting on information through NCIC/NLETS when he stops you. You may not know what he knows and take his actions as completely unwarranted where in his mind he was either confirming or dispelling that you were someone that was either wanted or looked similar to a person involved in a nearby crime, etc.
If the LEO goes crazy overboard you still need to obey his commands, but go through the appropriate channels (with agency supervision) after the encounter.
Heck the geographical area can be a factor (i.e. rural v. urban v. airport ) in the officer's decision whether to approach or not.
If the officer really wants to hold onto it, let him, but remember you're not required to answer any questions beyond name, rank and serial number, and probably not even those.
"Sorry, Officer, I don't have voluntary conversations with people that are better armed than I am. If I'm free to go, I'll have my firearm and be on my merry little way. Or, you can return my firearm and we can have a little chat. If I'm not free to go, then I've been advised to exercise my right to remain silent and am exercising my right. I want my attorney before answering any further questions."
I don't believe you are correct, sir. The officer is not legally obligated to consider each and every facet that may prove conduct is innocent. He merely has to observe conduct that a reasonable man would consider criminal.
While a person may have the most innocent of reasons to be running down the road while holding a bag from which there is a stream of orange smoke while the police are responding to a silent bank robbery call; the police are not required to consider that you always keep your money in bags and that your 5-year old just happened to sneak a smoke bomb into it that morning.
They have observed conduct consistent with an illegal act and have authority to investigate it. If you have no explanation as to why you have a bag full of smoking orange money, they aren't required to check the serial number of each bill to see if it was in the bank's possession mere minutes earlier. If you refuse (as is your right) to say anything, they have probable cause to make an arrest. It will easily be proven or disproven in court and since you've "not been harmed" there's no recovery to be made.
It's illegal to exceed the speed limit, but if you can prove necessity (such as being chased by a T-rex or to escape dozens of thug motorcyclists) then you won't be penalized.
Because, in TN, it is against the law to be armed with a handgun, OC or CC, without a CHP.Why would the "cop" be an idiot to "not" detain someone for openly carrying? Just because I cross into TN from KY I should be looked upon as a criminal for openly carrying my firearm? The Second Amendment should be enough for an officer to use his discretion and not contact those that are simply exercising their Second Amendment rights, regardless of state law.
Absent RAS of an ACTUAL criminal offense that warrants my time, I will never detain anyone for carrying a firearm, openly or concealed. Just because there is a law on the books doesn't mean it must be enforced every time someone violates it. Any law that forbids someone from exercising their Second Amendment rights is unconstitutional in my opinion, and I refuse to enforce such laws.
While you may apply the "and dangerous" component, you may be a rare cop. All a cop has to do is verbalize to a judge, long after the encounter by the way, that he perceived you to be dangerous and thus he disarming you was justified. Happens all the time. Cops says so and it was so. The instances of a judge disagreeing with that claim are on par with a Big Foot sighting, extremely rare to say the least. Judges, elected ones, will not piss-off cops and not be seen as soft on crime.To the original poster:
When an officer can disarm you depends on the situation at hand. Yes, state laws are very different and you will have to consult them. What is also very important is case law that has been established by the Sixth circuit and SCOTUS.
To begin, an officer can not disarm you just to disarm you. <snip>
Because, in TN, it is against the law to be armed with a handgun, OC or CC, without a CHP.
Simple, a TN cop sees you with a gun, you have broken the law. A TN cop must stop and verify that you have a defense via the CHP. I don't make this stuff up. Guns are different in the eyes of LE when compared to driving. If a TN cop knows you have a gun and he does not detain you to investigate whether or not you have a defense then he is derelict in his duties and likely committing a criminal act for not investigating. His personal views regarding the 2A notwithstanding.
While you may apply the "and dangerous" component, you may be a rare cop. All a cop has to do is verbalize to a judge, long after the encounter by the way, that he perceived you to be dangerous and thus he disarming you was justified. Happens all the time. Cops says so and it was so. The instances of a judge disagreeing with that claim are on par with a Big Foot sighting, extremely rare to say the least. Judges, elected ones, will not piss-off cops and not be seen as soft on crime.
I would like for a cop to get past all the "past criminal activity" crap and focus on the need for the contact, none of those thing you wish to determine can be determined by mere visual observation other than the OC of a properly holstered handgun. Why did you stop the citizen.
Do criminals look different? Why does the time of day matter? Where should I not go and when? Why do cops wish to control my movements? "If you (the citizen) are found to be here, at this time, that alone is sufficient cause to detain you. In the name of public safety that is." "You cooperate and in 5 minutes or less and we are all good."
Cops who say they disarm regardless of the circumstances are likely the only honest cops on this particular subject. There can be no measure of safety for me when I am disarmed without my consent. The entire reason I go armed is for my safety. I must place my safety in the hands of a man who has disarmed me for his safety.
Ironic if you think about it. I get disarmed for my safety.....
If the officer really wants to hold onto it, let him, but remember you're not required to answer any questions beyond name, rank and serial number, and probably not even those.
1) I apologize that my poor attempt at humor was misunderstood. "Name, rank and serial number" is a reference to the laws of war, where such information is required to be provided to one's captors.Name, rank and serial number? Why would the individual detained be required to "answer" his rank? and serial number? In many states it isn't even a requirement to provide your name if you are detained or arrested, as is the case here in KY. If the state has a law that requires identification then you must identify, but absent such a law identification of any kind is not required. See Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District of Nevada, Humboldt County, 542 U.S. 960 (2004)
Shush said:Officer.com]
Reading the court document on this - I would have to say that the judge missed this one. The officer was specifically assigned to this area because it was considered a high crime area. He sees a man walking along in attire that is typical of a thug culture*, displaying a pistol on his side. This is reasonable suspicion. He approaches the guy. The guy says "am i being detained?" The officer says no, but i want to speak with you.
The guy refuses to cooperate.[emphasis in original]
After refusal to cooperate, he eventually asks again if he is detained - to which the officer says yes.
...
I never said it was a crime to remain silent. I said his remaining silent increased the reasonable suspicion[emphasis by poster]. High crime area, uncooperative person, displaying a firearm, - totality of circumstances. His silence added to the reasonable suspicion.
By him being uncooperative with the police, who are just trying to confirm he is not a lunatic, he has successfully created a precedent. Now, reasonable suspicion is no longer valid.
I don't make this stuff up. Guns are different in the eyes of LE when compared to driving. If a TN cop knows you have a gun and he does not detain you to investigate whether or not you have a defense then he is derelict in his duties and likely committing a criminal act for not investigating. His personal views regarding the 2A notwithstanding.
I seem to have lost track of the post, but anyway. Someone said...
"We all hear about people calling in to dispatch about a man with a gun, when that man is simply openly carrying a properly holstered handgun."
So the correct response from a properly trained dispatch is to ask a follow-up question. Is the weapon holstered or not. Then explain that Open and concealed carry is legal in Tennessee.
Its so simple.
No wasted police time.
No aggravated citizen filing complaints and having their time wasted.
Why is it so difficult for some people to do the obvious, common sense solution to mitigate the issue.
Any officer that says he is disarming you for your safety is ridiculous..
I seem to have lost track of the post, but anyway. Someone said...
"We all hear about people calling in to dispatch about a man with a gun, when that man is simply openly carrying a properly holstered handgun."
So the correct response from a properly trained dispatch is to ask a follow-up question. Is the weapon holstered or not. Then explain that Open and concealed carry is legal in Tennessee.
Its so simple.
No wasted police time.
No aggravated citizen filing complaints and having their time wasted.
Why is it so difficult for some people to do the obvious, common sense solution to mitigate the issue.
I'll believe you IF you can show me one court case of an officer convicted of a criminal act for not investigating, OR one officer who was officially penalized by his department for dereliction of duty in not investigating someone he sees armed.Simple, a TN cop sees you with a gun, you have broken the law. A TN cop must stop and verify that you have a defense via the CHP. I don't make this stuff up. Guns are different in the eyes of LE when compared to driving. If a TN cop knows you have a gun and he does not detain you to investigate whether or not you have a defense then he is derelict in his duties and likely committing a criminal act for not investigating. His personal views regarding the 2A notwithstanding.
I hear what you're saying, but actually OC/CC is not legal it TN, it is illegal and you can defend yourself against that charge by having a permit.
....and as former dispatcher, you can't rely very much on what a caller tells you they are observing.
But I agree follow up questions about what else is the person doing, etc... is a must.
Right. That's how many licenses / permits work.DamonK said:That's not how a permit works... that would be like saying that driving is illegal, but a licence gives you a defence when you get arrested, for driving.